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Old 06-19-2011, 11:00 AM
 
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one thing i never understood. why are baserunners allowed to over-run first base (and of course home plate too, but that's a non-issue; i'm just pointing out the similarity) but runners are not allowed to over-run second base and third base?
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Asheville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimace8 View Post
one thing i never understood. why are baserunners allowed to over-run first base (and of course home plate too, but that's a non-issue; i'm just pointing out the similarity) but runners are not allowed to over-run second base and third base?
players are able to get to 1st base quicker because they don't have to slow down to slide or prepare to stop if they aren't sliding.

which improves the players chances of arriving ahead of the throw.

It's just improves the odds a hitter has of getting on base.
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Old 06-19-2011, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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I think the rule was instituted to reduce the number of slides into first base. I'm assuming that at an early stage of the evolution of the game, the base could not be over-run, but I can see the logic in making that allowance, since every batter who puts the ball in play winds up arrving at first.

I did see a play in a collegiate-summer-league game lat night, though, that gave me pause. A batter got a clean hit to the outfield, and overran first where there was no play on him. He simply went a few steps down the foul line, turned around to the right, and ambled back to first. I don't think the rule book specifically make a distinction, but as an ump, I might have been tempted to consider that an attempt to advance another base, since there was no need to arrive at first base at speed to beat a throw.
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
I did see a play in a collegiate-summer-league game lat night, though, that gave me pause. A batter got a clean hit to the outfield, and overran first where there was no play on him. He simply went a few steps down the foul line, turned around to the right, and ambled back to first. I don't think the rule book specifically make a distinction, but as an ump, I might have been tempted to consider that an attempt to advance another base, since there was no need to arrive at first base at speed to beat a throw.
The rule is that if the batter turns to the right and returns to firstbase, he is safe. The rule is not dependent on whether or not a play was made at first, so why would you be tempted to call the runner out? That would be against the rules.

Now if you were that player's manager, you should be tempted to say a few words to him about how on a single, you should at least round the bag and be in a position to go to second just in case a throw goes wild.
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
The rule is that if the batter turns to the right and returns to firstbase, he is safe. The rule is not dependent on whether or not a play was made at first, so why would you be tempted to call the runner out? That would be against the rules.

Now if you were that player's manager, you should be tempted to say a few words to him about how on a single, you should at least round the bag and be in a position to go to second just in case a throw goes wild.
Quote me the rule that addresses turning to the right. I can't find it.

The rule book makes no distinction between turning right and turning left, nor whether he turns in fair or foul territory. That is a Little League myth. It is a judgment call by the umpire, as to whether the runner proceeded beyond first base with an intent to try to go to second. If the umpire judges that the runner passed first base on a clean hit to the outfield, the runner can be ruled in jeopardy of being tagged out for the very fact of proceeding beyond first base.

7.08 (c) He is tagged, when the ball is alive, while off his base. EXCEPTION: The batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base;

(j) He fails to return at once to first base after overrunning or oversliding that base. If he attempts to run to second he is out when tagged.

Just to clarify, I did not say I would "call the runner out"---I would rule that he is in jeopardy of being tagged out.
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
He simply went a few steps down the foul line, turned around to the right, and ambled back to first.
That was the description of the play which you provided. I would interpret the behavior you describe as showing no intent to advance. So, while not the actual rule, the right turn was a sign of compliance with the rule. And the actual rule does not require that a play is being made at first, does it?
Quote:
The batter-runner cannot be tagged out after overrunning or oversliding first base if he returns immediately to the base
I do not see any language concerning whether or not a play was made. I do not see any judgment for the ump to make beyond "Did he return immediately to the base." You are empowering the umps beyond the rules with your theory of their discretion to interpret the behavior you have described in the play.
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
That was the description of the play which you provided. I would interpret the behavior you describe as showing no intent to advance. So, while not the actual rule, the right turn was a sign of compliance with the rule. And the actual rule does not require that a play is being made at first, does it?

So, if the batter was in clear compliance with the rules, what part of his behavior is it that causes you to say:

He ran past first, in order to evaluate the ongoing play, prepared to go to second, depending on how the ball is handled. That is intent, even if he abandons his intent, shrugs, turns to the right, and returns to first. Judgement call which the umpire is entitled to make. Why else would the runner run past first, or for that matter, even run full speed to first such that he could not stop without overrunning, unless it was his intent to have a running start to advance to second if he thought he could make it? That's intent, and he has relinquished his immunity.
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Old 06-20-2011, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Englewood, Near Eastside Indy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
He ran past first, in order to evaluate the ongoing play, prepared to go to second, depending on how the ball is handled. That is intent, even if he abandons his intent, shrugs, turns to the right, and returns to first.
This is a different description than the one you originally provided. In your first description, you only said the runner ran to first, turned to the right, and went back to first base. Nothing in your original description indicates the runner plans on advancing to 2nd. In fact, your exact words were:

A batter got a clean hit to the outfield, and overran first where there was no play on him. He simply went a few steps down the foul line, turned around to the right, and ambled back to first.

There is nothing in your original description to signal the runner intends on advancing to second. He overran 1st base along the foul line, turned the opposite direction of second base, and returned to 1st base. Based on your original description, calling the runner in jeopardy would seem silly.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
He ran past first, in order to evaluate the ongoing play, prepared to go to second, depending on how the ball is handled. That is intent, even if he abandons his intent, shrugs, turns to the right, and returns to first. Judgement call which the umpire is entitled to make. Why else would the runner run past first, or for that matter, even run full speed to first such that he could not stop without overrunning, unless it was his intent to have a running start to advance to second if he thought he could make it? That's intent, and he has relinquished his immunity.
Where in the rules is it allowed for the ump to make the kind of judgment you are describing? I see a rule which calls for the umpire to judge whether or not the batter returned immediately to firstbase. I see nothing at all about there having to be a play made at first for this rule to stand.

You made this up, there is no jeopardy to the runner, the umpire has no authority to call an out on the play save the runner's failure to return immediately to first.
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Old 06-20-2011, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,164 posts, read 15,082,494 times
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Simply if you commit to the next base by going in that direction,you can be tagged out. That's why if you make a turn towards 2nd you can be tagged out. If you overrun any other base excluding 1st, you are actually going in the direction of the next base. Going straight up the first baseline or to the right does not shorten your distance to 2nd base.
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