U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-19-2014, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
13,244 posts, read 24,531,655 times
Reputation: 13030

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I didn't know the writer made knock off programs for the Mariners games. Then again, I haven't lived there since the 90s.

What I'm getting is that the front office doesn't really care about the fans. Once they got their new stadium, it was "whatever" after that.

Cano's signing might be a glimmer of hope. The question is this. Will it be worth the money? What will happen? Or will it all come together and Cano is just the thing that will be needed?

The question with the new talent is this. Will it all come together? One team I think about, is the 1979 Pittsburgh Pirates. The "We Are Family" Pirates. There was a big sense of "togetherness" that brought the team together. Yes, you had Willie Stargell and Dave Parker, the "superstars". However, the 1979 Pirates were not ran by super stars. It was an actual team. Former Pirates pitcher Kent Tekulve basically said "It's a family". Outfielder John Milner said "we're just like a family". I'm wondering if that could take place with the new young talent. Can it come together?The 2001 Mariners had Ichiro as its superstar. However, what I gathered from the 2001 Mariners, it was a team, it was a team coming together. 1995 worked the same way. Griffey was taken out by the famous wrist injury. The M's struggled a bit, but decided "we're gonna hang in there, we're gonna keep plugging away" and the team came together. And then when Griffey returned, the team staged a big come back, and on to the very first playoff in M's history. I watched "My Oh My" a few times. It was a team coming together. The team refused to lose or let the dream die.
I watch My Oh My at the beginning of every season.

Baseball teams are businesses, and businesses are designed to make money, not win games. As long as they make money, all is well, whether or not the team is actually a good product on the field.

The Mariners forced Seattle/King County's hand when it came to Safeco Field. They were either leaving or selling the team if they didn't get a new stadium. The timing was perfect, as no baseball fan who was an area resident was going to vote no on a new publicly financed stadium right after the team made its first playoff trip. The Mariners aren't run by baseball people, they're run by businessmen.

The Mariners usually try and build with free agents and trades, not homegrown talent. Look at the guys the M's shipped off before they had a chance to hit their primes (just off the top of my head):
Jose Cruz Jr.
Jason Varitek
Derek Lowe
Shin Soo Choo
Asdrubal Cabrera
Adam Jones
Michael Morse (the first time)
Carlos Guillen
Brian Fuentes
Mike Hampton
Rafael Soriano
Tino Martinez
George Sherrill
Omar Vizquel
Raul Ibanez

Now, it's virtually Cano, Felix, Iwakuma, and a bunch of nobodies. The young players either need to develop into solid role players or stars, or they need to add more role players via free agency/trade. They made a half-assed attempt at this last year (Ibanez, Morse, Morales), but had no clearly defined leader, and a disinterested manager.

Look at any World Series team that wins or not. They are usually stacked by a solid role player or star, at every position. They always have at least 3 good starting pitchers, and a deep bullpen. You only need to have this for one year, and only need to be able to win in the playoffs. The 2001 Mariners had all of this, but we all know what happened there.

Is it really too much to ask?
__________________
Moderator for Los Angeles, The Inland Empire, and the Washington state forums.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-19-2014, 05:07 PM
 
48,564 posts, read 45,726,594 times
Reputation: 15459
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I watch My Oh My at the beginning of every season.

Baseball teams are businesses, and businesses are designed to make money, not win games. As long as they make money, all is well, whether or not the team is actually a good product on the field.

The Mariners forced Seattle/King County's hand when it came to Safeco Field. They were either leaving or selling the team if they didn't get a new stadium. The timing was perfect, as no baseball fan who was an area resident was going to vote no on a new publicly financed stadium right after the team made its first playoff trip. The Mariners aren't run by baseball people, they're run by businessmen.

The Mariners usually try and build with free agents and trades, not homegrown talent. Look at the guys the M's shipped off before they had a chance to hit their primes (just off the top of my head):
Jose Cruz Jr.
Jason Varitek
Derek Lowe
Shin Soo Choo
Asdrubal Cabrera
Adam Jones
Michael Morse (the first time)
Carlos Guillen
Brian Fuentes
Mike Hampton
Rafael Soriano
Tino Martinez
George Sherrill
Omar Vizquel
Raul Ibanez

Now, it's virtually Cano, Felix, Iwakuma, and a bunch of nobodies. The young players either need to develop into solid role players or stars, or they need to add more role players via free agency/trade. They made a half-assed attempt at this last year (Ibanez, Morse, Morales), but had no clearly defined leader, and a disinterested manager.

Look at any World Series team that wins or not. They are usually stacked by a solid role player or star, at every position. They always have at least 3 good starting pitchers, and a deep bullpen. You only need to have this for one year, and only need to be able to win in the playoffs. The 2001 Mariners had all of this, but we all know what happened there.

Is it really too much to ask?
It is not too much to ask to get to the World Series, and win. However, as you say, the owners aren't in it to win, but to make money. The owners wanted a new stadium, and were telling the city of Seattle "give us a new stadium, or it's bye bye with us". The team was on its way out. That is what the 1995 playoff run was about. It was more than just the very first playoffs. The M's might very well not be in Seattle anymore.

The M's stopped being run by baseball people a long time ago. It stopped being like that. As soon as the ownership got what they wanted, it was whatever to the fans. I suspect the Astros ownership are the same way. The Astros have had 3 straight seasons of 100+ losses.

The role player thing you are talking about, that is exactly what I'm talking about. The 1995 Mariners had role players. The 1979 Pirates had role players(with Tekulve being the big reliever). The 1990 Cincinnati Reds had role players(anyone remember the Nasty Boys?). I've never really liked the Braves. However, they had
role players too. The current Mariners team seems to be about a cult of personality with "King Felix". Don't get me wrong. He's a good player, but he alone isn't enough.

I think shipping off the best talent has harmed the M's big time. Omar Vizquel went to Cleveland, the very team that would beat Seattle in the 1995 ALCS. Tino would go to New York the year after, and get 4 World Series rings. Mike Hampton could have been part of the 1995 "Refuse to Lose" team. However, he would go to the Astros, and get three playoff appearances, and played for the 2000 Mets, which went to the 2000 World Series. Derek Lowe went to the Red Sox in the middle the 1997 season, and went on to get his first World Series ring, ironically with the Red Sox.

Sadly, it goes back to "it's about the money", short term money. Go after the long term money. A World Series could bring in alot of money.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2014, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,163 posts, read 13,221,415 times
Reputation: 2489
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I watch My Oh My at the beginning of every season.

Baseball teams are businesses, and businesses are designed to make money, not win games. As long as they make money, all is well, whether or not the team is actually a good product on the field.

The Mariners forced Seattle/King County's hand when it came to Safeco Field. They were either leaving or selling the team if they didn't get a new stadium. The timing was perfect, as no baseball fan who was an area resident was going to vote no on a new publicly financed stadium right after the team made its first playoff trip. The Mariners aren't run by baseball people, they're run by businessmen.

The Mariners usually try and build with free agents and trades, not homegrown talent. Look at the guys the M's shipped off before they had a chance to hit their primes (just off the top of my head):
Jose Cruz Jr.
Jason Varitek
Derek Lowe
Shin Soo Choo
Asdrubal Cabrera
Adam Jones
Michael Morse (the first time)
Carlos Guillen
Brian Fuentes
Mike Hampton
Rafael Soriano
Tino Martinez
George Sherrill
Omar Vizquel
Raul Ibanez

Now, it's virtually Cano, Felix, Iwakuma, and a bunch of nobodies. The young players either need to develop into solid role players or stars, or they need to add more role players via free agency/trade. They made a half-assed attempt at this last year (Ibanez, Morse, Morales), but had no clearly defined leader, and a disinterested manager.

Look at any World Series team that wins or not. They are usually stacked by a solid role player or star, at every position. They always have at least 3 good starting pitchers, and a deep bullpen. You only need to have this for one year, and only need to be able to win in the playoffs. The 2001 Mariners had all of this, but we all know what happened there.

Is it really too much to ask?
If you look at the late 80's to early 90's Yankees, we did the same. If not for the suspension of Steinbrenner, Gene Michael never would have had the chance to build up the minors with guys like Jeter, Mariano, Posada, and Petitte. We also traded away many over the years like Jose Rijo, McGriff, Jay Buhner, Doug Drabek and so on.
Later on we learned how to mesh homegrown talent with young free agents, and older role players and situational hitters and pitchers. Give it a few years to see what happens. I know it sucks but I also remembers the late 80's watching my Yankees when there was no central and we were towards the bottom of the division with Cleveland and Milwaukee. It all starts with pitching and you aren't too bad there. After that cheap role players can sometimes make a huge difference.

***Look at some of our winning teams. Guys named Charlie Hayes, Scott Brosius, Graeme Lloyd, an over the hill Daryl Strawberry, an older Dwight Gooden, Chuck Knoublauch. You get the picture. You don't always need a ton of stars. Chemistry goes a long way.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2014, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
13,244 posts, read 24,531,655 times
Reputation: 13030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancet71 View Post
If you look at the late 80's to early 90's Yankees, we did the same. If not for the suspension of Steinbrenner, Gene Michael never would have had the chance to build up the minors with guys like Jeter, Mariano, Posada, and Petitte. We also traded away many over the years like Jose Rijo, McGriff, Jay Buhner, Doug Drabek and so on.
Later on we learned how to mesh homegrown talent with young free agents, and older role players and situational hitters and pitchers. Give it a few years to see what happens. I know it sucks but I also remembers the late 80's watching my Yankees when there was no central and we were towards the bottom of the division with Cleveland and Milwaukee. It all starts with pitching and you aren't too bad there. After that cheap role players can sometimes make a huge difference.

***Look at some of our winning teams. Guys named Charlie Hayes, Scott Brosius, Graeme Lloyd, an over the hill Daryl Strawberry, an older Dwight Gooden, Chuck Knoublauch. You get the picture. You don't always need a ton of stars. Chemistry goes a long way.
I actually was going to make the Yankees comparison. Their deep playoff teams are always classic. Always medium-name guys with a few superstars. The Yankees have used this formula for about the last 20 years, and have had tons of success.

You can't win any other way. You can't win with nothing but young players (the 2012 Mariners), or young players with a few role players (2013 Mariners). You need a good balanced mesh.
__________________
Moderator for Los Angeles, The Inland Empire, and the Washington state forums.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2014, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,163 posts, read 13,221,415 times
Reputation: 2489
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I actually was going to make the Yankees comparison. Their deep playoff teams are always classic. Always medium-name guys with a few superstars. The Yankees have used this formula for about the last 20 years, and have had tons of success.

You can't win any other way. You can't win with nothing but young players (the 2012 Mariners), or young players with a few role players (2013 Mariners). You need a good balanced mesh.
Agreed. When we bought Tartabull and the Mets bought Bonilla, both thought they would go somewhere and we both flopped. Later on we decided to get solid guys/not stars (Tino, Jimmy Key, Jeff Nelson in free agency and trades and situational players to go with the guys I previously named(Jeter, Mo, Posada, Pettitte and Bernie Williams).
Well it was good for a while.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-19-2014, 11:30 PM
 
1,677 posts, read 2,051,431 times
Reputation: 1074
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
The Mariners usually try and build with free agents and trades, not homegrown talent. Look at the guys the M's shipped off before they had a chance to hit their primes (just off the top of my head):
Jose Cruz Jr.
Jason Varitek
Derek Lowe
Shin Soo Choo
Asdrubal Cabrera
Adam Jones
Michael Morse (the first time)
Carlos Guillen
Brian Fuentes
Mike Hampton
Rafael Soriano
Tino Martinez
George Sherrill
Omar Vizquel
Raul Ibanez
How could you forget Danny Tartabull and, especially, David "Big Papi" Ortiz?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2014, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
13,244 posts, read 24,531,655 times
Reputation: 13030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil A. Delphia View Post
How could you forget Danny Tartabull and, especially, David "Big Papi" Ortiz?
OMG, quite embarrassed that I forgot David Arias.
__________________
Moderator for Los Angeles, The Inland Empire, and the Washington state forums.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2014, 08:46 AM
 
48,564 posts, read 45,726,594 times
Reputation: 15459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil A. Delphia View Post
How could you forget Danny Tartabull and, especially, David "Big Papi" Ortiz?
Ortiz never played for the M's.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2014, 09:00 AM
 
52,217 posts, read 42,017,368 times
Reputation: 32583
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I actually was going to make the Yankees comparison. Their deep playoff teams are always classic. Always medium-name guys with a few superstars. The Yankees have used this formula for about the last 20 years, and have had tons of success.

You can't win any other way. You can't win with nothing but young players (the 2012 Mariners), or young players with a few role players (2013 Mariners). You need a good balanced mesh.
Yes, a good balance mesh built with a very large payroll does wonders for a teams chances.

The bottom line is that with a 84million payroll, you have no margin for error in terms of player development, injury and signing "busts".

Imagine if you had another 100million in payroll and could at 5-6 all-stars to your roster.

I frankly think that there are a whole bunch of older baseball fans that just don't want to face reality. They want to believe their team will put it all together and ignore the huge gulf has opened up that has greatly reduced their chances of winning a world series...or even making it there.

Yeah, every once in a while a smaller payroll will shine but it's getting harder and harder and those are more and more the exceptions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-20-2014, 10:15 AM
 
1,677 posts, read 2,051,431 times
Reputation: 1074
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Ortiz never played for the M's.
Signed and developed by the M's, put up big offensive numbers in the minors, and traded to the Twins for Dave Hollins.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top