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Old 09-13-2012, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,619,897 times
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Fair enough.

A question for you: What is the correct number of teams that ought to advance to the post season, and by what methodology did you arrive at that ideal number? And should all those teams restart the post-season on equal footing, regardless of their relative performances in the regular season?

And most importantly, which should take higher precedence -- the profit motive of the owners of the monopolized product, or the integrity of the season championship process? The profit motive has already been allowed to increase the number of playoff teams from 1/8 to 1/3 of the league, a 2.67-fold expansion. At what point do you say profit has gone far enough that integrity is threatened?

Last edited by jtur88; 09-13-2012 at 09:39 AM..
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,660 posts, read 18,731,886 times
Reputation: 18857
jtur88

Quote:
A question for you: What is the correct number of teams that ought to advance to the post season, and by what methodology did you arrive at that ideal number? And should all those teams restart the post-season on equal footing, regardless of their relative performances in the regular season?
There isn't one, that is the point I've been trying to make. There is no such thing as any absolute fairness in any of this, there is only an agreed upon system which will always feature the perception of unfairness by any team which experiences misfortune as a consequence of the structure. Different structure, different team complaining, but the same dynamic at work.

In that there is no absolute, and in that MLB is a business, not a commonly owned national resource, it will be the owners who determine how many teams qualify for the post season and that number will be based on however much they can maximize revenues without losing fans because they watered it all down too much.

So, what you are asking me is at what point would I quit watching baseball because they watered down the standards for the post season to a point past my tolerance. My answer is that I do not know. I was a fan when it was two teams, I remained a fan when it was four and I'm still a fan now that it has reached nine. I understand the need to expand the playoffs as they expanded the number of franchises, that is simply good business sense. If you had two 15 team leagues with one post season qualifier from each league, then each season would be marked by only five or six teams having competitive seasons and a couple of dozen franchises who aren't giving their fans any reason to turn out after August. That would be a business shooting itself in the foot.

So, they expand the number of post season teams, and they will probably continue to do so until they reach a point where the majority of fans start finding the regular season devoid of meaning. By your account, they have already reached this point, yet you remain a fan, at least based on the evidence of your frequent posting in this forum on the topic of baseball. You say you don't like it, yet you continue to behave in a manner which encourages the owners to believe that they are doing the right thing.

If they had truly wrecked the game as you contend, then in theory you would have lost interest and confined your posting to non baseball boards.

So...I don't know what the point would be when I would be so turned off that I dropped MLB from my life. You claim that you do know, and that it has been reached, yet the turn off did not take place. At what point would you actually live up to the complaints you have been making and cease being a MLB fan?
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Old 09-13-2012, 12:16 PM
 
2,963 posts, read 3,078,964 times
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Go back to 1993. There was no wild card. So Atlanta would not even get to make the play-in game (assuming Atlanta and Washington were in the same division, which they likely would have been).

The new system makes you win your division. I think it is great concept to try out. It should be better than the 2010 series finale of the rays and yankees who had both clinched playoff berths but were just jockeying for the division win. That series didn't see the teams bring out their aces. They rested them for the playoffs. That's not how it should be.

The scenario shown by Jtur88 earlier could happen. Atlanta could lose to a team that has 9 less wins and a team that they beat 5 of 6 times. Winning the division used to mean something. It should make for very interesting Game 162s and 163s.
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Old 09-13-2012, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,619,897 times
Reputation: 36116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
jtur88



There isn't one, that is the point I've been trying to make. There is no such thing as any absolute fairness in any of this, there is only an agreed upon system which will always feature the perception of unfairness by any team which experiences misfortune as a consequence of the structure. Different structure, different team complaining, but the same dynamic at work.

In that there is no absolute, and in that MLB is a business, not a commonly owned national resource, it will be the owners who determine how many teams qualify for the post season and that number will be based on however much they can maximize revenues without losing fans because they watered it all down too much.

So, what you are asking me is at what point would I quit watching baseball because they watered down the standards for the post season to a point past my tolerance. My answer is that I do not know. I was a fan when it was two teams, I remained a fan when it was four and I'm still a fan now that it has reached nine. I understand the need to expand the playoffs as they expanded the number of franchises, that is simply good business sense. If you had two 15 team leagues with one post season qualifier from each league, then each season would be marked by only five or six teams having competitive seasons and a couple of dozen franchises who aren't giving their fans any reason to turn out after August. That would be a business shooting itself in the foot.

So, they expand the number of post season teams, and they will probably continue to do so until they reach a point where the majority of fans start finding the regular season devoid of meaning. By your account, they have already reached this point, yet you remain a fan, at least based on the evidence of your frequent posting in this forum on the topic of baseball. You say you don't like it, yet you continue to behave in a manner which encourages the owners to believe that they are doing the right thing.

If they had truly wrecked the game as you contend, then in theory you would have lost interest and confined your posting to non baseball boards.

So...I don't know what the point would be when I would be so turned off that I dropped MLB from my life. You claim that you do know, and that it has been reached, yet the turn off did not take place. At what point would you actually live up to the complaints you have been making and cease being a MLB fan?
You say there is no absolute, but you also say I am absolutely wrong when I propose that four be the working number. So, you believe there are numbers within a range of acceptability. What is that range? What is too few, and what is too many?

By your extremist philosophy, there could be no opposition to anything. There would be no Protestantism or Republican Party, those who disapproved of the prevailing institutions would have just turned their interests elsewhere and ignored the fallacies, leaving Catholics and Democrats to run roughshod as they pleased. until they self-destructed through their own internal excesses.

Which doesn't strike me as a strong argumentative point, even though to some observers it might be their personal position of choice, and not even raise a voice of protest, nor for that matter, even "root for" an alternative..

Last edited by jtur88; 09-13-2012 at 12:42 PM..
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Old 09-13-2012, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,387,756 times
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I'm officially rooting for the Tigers so I can stop caring about the White Sox. Robin Ventura has been a bad, bad game manager since the sept roster changes
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,660 posts, read 18,731,886 times
Reputation: 18857
jtur88
Quote:
You say there is no absolute, but you also say I am absolutely wrong when I propose that four be the working number. So, you believe there are numbers within a range of acceptability. What is that range? What is too few, and what is too many?
No. Please find where I made any such statement that your ideas are "wrong." In that I stated there is no right or wrong, only what works for the owners and fans, where would you even get the idea that I think any specific number of teams is "wrong?"

Quote:
By your extremist philosophy, there could be no opposition to anything. There would be no Protestantism or Republican Party, those who disapproved of the prevailing institutions would have just turned their interests elsewhere and ignored the fallacies, leaving Catholics and Democrats to run roughshod as they pleased. until they self-destructed through their own internal excesses.
prattle, prattle, mumbo jumbo, irrelevant noise, unrelated gratuitous typing...

"extremist philosophy"...what the bleep is wrong with you? What extremist philosophy? I could see how someone reading my posts would conclude that I am a pragmatist, but it takes someone with your sort of brain to read it and conclude "extremist." Stop this sort of nonsense.

Rather than the above nothing, I would appreciate your addressing my question from a few posts back. You are speaking to the owners, and speaking to the fans of a team contending for a wild card spot only...and you are explaining to them why it is very important that the owners give up the massive revenues involved in an expanded post season, and why it is very important for those fans to have their team out of contention by September rather than being kept alive by the wild card. Why is the jtur aesthetic of four and only four post season teams superior in any manner?

In short, we are all still waiting for your explanation as to why it needs to be your way rather than any other way. You keep avoiding that explanation.

Without that explanation, why should anyone listen to you? "It must be this way" sans any reasons for why it needs to be that way, is nothing.

So...what are the reasons? And keep in mind that they have to be so good that they trump the revenues and expanded number of fan bases who will have teams in competition for the post season.
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:29 PM
Status: "Warrior fan no matter the roster" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
12,229 posts, read 10,503,318 times
Reputation: 11259
I'm of the philosophy the new playoff set-up strengthens the league, as the wild-card is no longer equivalent a division win. As an A's fan, I'm not too happy our team's postseason may be determined by one game when it may have the second-best record in the league. However, under the old set up, there was no motivation for a team to win its division if it could win the wild card spot, whereas now doing so ensures a full series in the ALDS.
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Old 09-13-2012, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,619,897 times
Reputation: 36116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
jtur88

No. Please find where I made any such statement that your ideas are "wrong." In that I stated there is no right or wrong, only what works for the owners and fans, where would you even get the idea that I think any specific number of teams is "wrong?"



prattle, prattle, mumbo jumbo, irrelevant noise, unrelated gratuitous typing...

"extremist philosophy"...what the bleep is wrong with you? What extremist philosophy? I could see how someone reading my posts would conclude that I am a pragmatist, but it takes someone with your sort of brain to read it and conclude "extremist." Stop this sort of nonsense.

Rather than the above nothing, I would appreciate your addressing my question from a few posts back. You are speaking to the owners, and speaking to the fans of a team contending for a wild card spot only...and you are explaining to them why it is very important that the owners give up the massive revenues involved in an expanded post season, and why it is very important for those fans to have their team out of contention by September rather than being kept alive by the wild card. Why is the jtur aesthetic of four and only four post season teams superior in any manner?

In short, we are all still waiting for your explanation as to why it needs to be your way rather than any other way. You keep avoiding that explanation.

Without that explanation, why should anyone listen to you? "It must be this way" sans any reasons for why it needs to be that way, is nothing.

So...what are the reasons? And keep in mind that they have to be so good that they trump the revenues and expanded number of fan bases who will have teams in competition for the post season.
How many post season teams ought there be? I say four. Now you "stated there is no right or wrong", so Four is not wrong. OK. Thanks. Bye.
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Old 09-13-2012, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,660 posts, read 18,731,886 times
Reputation: 18857
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
How many post season teams ought there be? I say four. Now you "stated there is no right or wrong", so Four is not wrong. OK. Thanks. Bye.
No it isn't right or wrong, but should it be the standard used? Even in the absence of a clear right or wrong, a selection still must be made. If in terms of fairness all systems are as likely to produce periodic outrages, on what then should we base the selection.

Should it be based on jtur's longing for what he thinks was the golden age when fewer teams reached the post season and fewer fans had their teams in contention for a slot?

Or should it be based on what maximizes owner revenues for their business, as well as pleasing more fans by making their late season games count for something rather than just finishing out the schedule as a possible spoiler team?

The benefits from the second suggestion have been listed and are manifest.

We all still await the explanation of the benefits of having just four teams in the post season as jtur insists and he keeps staying his hand on this presentation for some reason. That leads all of us to suspect that perhaps his reasons are not very good, that they are personal and eccentric and apply only to himself. Or perhaps the more cynical among us may suspect that he has no reasons at all, that he is just making contrary noise because he is a contrarian by nature.

jtur could vanquish those suspicions by presenting his well reasoned critique which establishes without question that MLB should only have four post season eligible teams.....he must have one, doesn't he? I mean surely he would not be putting up all this fuss if he did not, right?
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:20 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,619,897 times
Reputation: 36116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
jtur insists and he keeps staying his hand on this presentation for some reason. That leads all of us to suspect that perhaps his reasons are not very good, that they are personal and eccentric and apply only to himself.
I have insisted on nothing. I have expressed what I was rooting for. What I'm rooting for follows reasons that are personal and eccentric and apply only to me. What do you think "rooting for" means? Insisting? Not for me, but you're welcome to your own interpretation and emotional response for that. Which maybe explains why I don't, as you counseled, just withdraw my fandom and go home in a pique of spite because they don't do it my way.
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