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Old 09-19-2012, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,238 posts, read 18,629,386 times
Reputation: 18777

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Jayess1
Quote:
it's interesting that earlier you mentioned, and I quote: "would be whether or not the replacement restores or enhances a pitcher's ability", but now you're focused on some metric of superior performance, ignoring your earlier reference to restoring.
MOD CUT Of course my focus would be on searching for evidence of superiority...that was your thesis, or has that slipped your mind? You also need focus on this and come up with the evidence which indicates John became better after the surgery because otherwise your point fails, doesn't it? I have not switched focus, I have backed up my argument with numbers. Now it is your turn...where are your numbers?


Quote:
In other words, the basis of my OP is that perhaps the simple act of being able to pitch post op is the performance enhancement itself, a concept you seem to be unwilling or unable to address. My reference to TJ is over that specific issue - by all accounts, he was barely able to carry out day to day tasks prior to the operation, yet was able to resume a quality career on the mound post op. This does open the door for questions of performance enhancement.
As I pointed out, Tommy John is but one among many pitchers who threw more innings after the age of 31 than he did before. Thus, John doing so is hardly indicative of some unusual performance which could only be explained by the fact that the surgery made him better. I am saying that your point is worthless unless you can back it up.....now please don't try and pretend that this is not relevant...it is obviously critical...although apparently not so obvious to you.
Quote:
BTW, you seem fixated on "performance enhancement" vis a vis a baseline comparison of previous performance. That's invalid, of course, as one's performance capabilities change over time. You seem to assert that had TJ not had the surgery he could've somehow returned to the mound - and perhaps he could have w/rigorous PT, but to assert that his career would've carried on as long w/o the operation is just, well, silly
Please identify the sentence I wrote in any of my posts which remotely hints at "had TJ not had the surgery he could've somehow returned to the mound" And when you can't, you might want to stop and ask yourself why you imagined that such a statement was there.

Would it not make more sense here for you to argue against things I have actually written rather than things you invent in your mind?

Last edited by NewToCA; 09-21-2012 at 12:02 AM.. Reason: rude comment
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:01 PM
 
882 posts, read 1,783,330 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Jayess1
MOD CUT Of course my focus would be on searching for evidence of superiority...that was your thesis, or has that slipped your mind?
Incorrect. "Performance enhancement" means "above the natural level", a state reached via the surgery, especially when other ligament structures are used. The ability to maintain performance, especially after injury, is a marker.
Quote:
You also need focus on this and come up with the evidence which indicates John became better after the surgery because otherwise your point fails, doesn't it? I have not switched focus, I have backed up my argument with numbers. Now it is your turn...where are your numbers?
You have "backed up" nothing, as you refuse to even acknowledge my OP due to your obsessions. Here, however, are two key numbers - 13 & 11, with the former being the additional seasons pitched post surgery.

Here's the key Q again (which you continue to sidestep): Could he have pitched at that level for longer than prior to the operation? When you get around to answering that one question, then we'll have a basis for further conversation.

Quote:
As I pointed out, Tommy John is but one among many pitchers who threw more innings after the age of 31 than he did before
This may then come as a shock to you, but I mentioned other pitchers by name even in my OP...
Quote:
Thus, John doing so is hardly indicative of some unusual performance which could only be explained by the fact that the surgery made him better
You're getting dangerously close to answering the Q. Are you asserting that he could've continued his career w/o the operation?
Quote:
I am saying that your point is worthless unless you can back it up.....now please don't try and pretend that this is not relevant...it is obviously critical...although apparently not so obvious to you.
You have a seeming fetish about "points". I'm relating what I heard & trying to engage a conversation @ that. You, OTOH, seem to see darker rationales lurking in the shadows. Here's a suggestion: try taking people at face value. Keeps one's BP lower.
Quote:
Please identify the sentence I wrote in any of my posts which remotely hints at "had TJ not had the surgery he could've somehow returned to the mound" And when you can't, you might want to stop and ask yourself why you imagined that such a statement was there
??? I'm asking if that's what you were saying, not claiming you said it. Is that so tough?
Quote:
Would it not make more sense here for you to argue against things I have actually written rather than things you invent in your mind?
You're the one arguing against things. I'm still waiting for you to answer what I actually wrote and quoted.

Last edited by NewToCA; 09-21-2012 at 12:03 AM..
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,238 posts, read 18,629,386 times
Reputation: 18777
Today the Office of Commissioner of Major League Baseball announced a new policy designed to satisfy the fans that the game is being played on the level.

Beginning with the 2013 MLB season there will be random testing for Tommy John surgery. A player who tests positive will be suspended for fifty games. If a second surgery takes place and is detected, it will be a one year suspension, and a third violation will result in a lifetime ban.

"It is all about the integrity of the game" said deputy commissioner J. Ayess, "the fans must know with certainty that they are not watching athletic accomplishment made possible by surgical enhancement. Bionic players will not be tolerated."
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:00 AM
 
882 posts, read 1,783,330 times
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So you really had no input. Ok, thanks, I guess...
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,238 posts, read 18,629,386 times
Reputation: 18777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayess1 View Post
So you really had no input. Ok, thanks, I guess...
No, no input would be no post at all, wouldn't it? Instead I went to the trouble of satirizing the concept which you are promoting, that somehow or other having surgery is every bit as much cheating as is using PEDs.

I turned to satire when it became apparent that reason and logic were not having any sort of impact on you.

Or....perhaps my post wasn't satire. Perhaps punishing and suspending people with the same degree of severity as is done with PEDs users makes perfect sense to you. After all, you have informed us that you are unable to distinguish a moral difference....so why shouldn't the consequences be indistinguishable?

So, are you for that? Or are you beginning to realize that these are not the same things at all?
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:11 AM
 
882 posts, read 1,783,330 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
No, no input would be no post at all, wouldn't it? Instead I went to the trouble of satirizing the concept which you are promoting, that somehow or other having surgery is every bit as much cheating as is using PEDs.
Now one can question your comprehension skills. I asked @ the concept, not "promoting" anything. Again, you're unable to handle basic differences.

Quote:
I turned to satire when it became apparent that reason and logic were not having any sort of impact on you.
Is that what you call it? I have a different title...

Quote:
Or....perhaps my post wasn't satire. Perhaps punishing and suspending people with the same degree of severity as is done with PEDs users makes perfect sense to you. After all, you have informed us that you are unable to distinguish a moral difference....so why shouldn't the consequences be indistinguishable?
Factually incorrect. I'm wondering about the physical similarities and differences.
Quote:
So, are you for that? Or are you beginning to realize that these are not the same things at all?
Frankly, it's becoming overwhelmingly obvious that you are somehow unwilling to differentiate between moral and physical...
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,238 posts, read 18,629,386 times
Reputation: 18777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayess1 View Post
Now one can question your comprehension skills. I asked @ the concept, not "promoting" anything. Again, you're unable to handle basic differences.

Is that what you call it? I have a different title...

Factually incorrect. I'm wondering about the physical similarities and differences.
Frankly, it's becoming overwhelmingly obvious that you are somehow unwilling to differentiate between moral and physical...
My impression is that you have lost track of your own thesis, or are attempting to disown it in some manner.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:45 PM
 
882 posts, read 1,783,330 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
My impression is that you have lost track of your own thesis, or are attempting to disown it in some manner.
Considering that I had no thesis, I'd say you've lost track of reality. I do note that you, as of yet, refuse to answer the key question, but instead bicker over language. Thanks for scaring others off, silly one.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,238 posts, read 18,629,386 times
Reputation: 18777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayess1 View Post
Considering that I had no thesis,.
Yet you posted one anyway.

That explains a lot.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:32 PM
 
882 posts, read 1,783,330 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Yet you posted one anyway.That explains a lot.
Yes, it does. Namely, that you know not the definition of the term. Allow me to assist: A statement or theory that is put forward as a premise to be maintained or proved: "can you support your thesis".
Considering that I'm asking for other's perceptions to another's thesis forces me to further question your reading comprehension.
Again, I note that you have yet to answer the basic question from my OP. Care to start now? Or do you prefer to sling Webster's @ 40 paces?
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