U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-06-2017, 07:12 AM
 
4,229 posts, read 2,130,370 times
Reputation: 3801

Advertisements

So Nick Pivetta falls to 0-2 with a 5.40 ERA and a 1.900 WHIP through two starts in MLB. He was a fringy Top-Ten prospect for the Nats and so far has been the same for the Phils. It could happen of course, but so far it does not seem that he'll be tormenting the Nats all that much over the next decade. If that's the worst deal that Rizzo has made (and it might be), we're actually in pretty good shape.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-06-2017, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Trumbull/Danbury
6,541 posts, read 4,492,339 times
Reputation: 2477
I don't mind the fact he got traded what I had a problem with and still have a problem with a year and a half later is the cancer Rizzo traded him for.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2017, 10:31 AM
 
4,229 posts, read 2,130,370 times
Reputation: 3801
The Nats problem at the time wasn't the ninth inning, but the seventh and eighth. As a playoff club, you look at that at the trade deadline, and realize that you can add Papelbon to do the ninth and have Storen take care of the eighth, and you just have to look very carefully at that. Pivetta wasn't really much of a price to pay, and it all worked out fine for a while. Then Storen broke his hand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2017, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Trumbull/Danbury
6,541 posts, read 4,492,339 times
Reputation: 2477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pub-911 View Post
The Nats problem at the time wasn't the ninth inning, but the seventh and eighth. As a playoff club, you look at that at the trade deadline, and realize that you can add Papelbon to do the ninth and have Storen take care of the eighth, and you just have to look very carefully at that. Pivetta wasn't really much of a price to pay, and it all worked out fine for a while. Then Storen broke his hand.

I said this at the time and I still believe it:


Quote:
Originally Posted by 7express View Post
Nationals improve their rotation depth, pry Phillies closer Jonathan Papelbon from the Phillies. This likely removes Storen from the 9th to now pitch the 8th. I really don't like it; sure it helps the bullpen, the team's biggest need, but this guy has an ego the size of Russia, is only concerned about finishing games and picking up his options and is at the wheel of an 18 wheeler, speeding down the highway at 80 mph and will run over anything and everything in his way. God forbid Desmond makes an error which leads to a Papelbon blown save, the Nats clubhouse will look worse then Chernobyl!

That's why I wanted Chapman or Kimbrel IF we were going to trade for relief help. They are team players, they'd probably be more willing to pitch the 8th inning if it meant winning, they aren't going to run over Desmond for making an error, Harper for running into a wall, Zimmerman for popping up to first with the bases loaded, Werth missing a ball because he's too slow.

Maybe Chapman or Kimbrel wouldn't have wanted to pitch the 8th either but at the time neither was a World Champ (Chapman would get his a year later) so if it meant helping the team and put the team (and themselves) in a better situation to be a champion they would have been more willing. And as I also said in a later post I forget the exact quote but I said something to the effect of "If you get a Benoit, Kimbrel or Chapman a pitcher that is willing to the pitch the 8th, and Storen fails THAN you have a backup and can replace Storen with the pitcher you traded for. IF Storen fails in the 8th (which he did) and Papelbon isn't good because he REFUSED to pitched the 8th (and he wasn't good) than you have no other options and you are screwed." And that's exactly what happened! Obviously the Mets had the trade of that season with Cespedes and I think they are winning the division regardless of who the Nationals trade for with the 60+ games Cespedes had in August & September of that year, but if the Nats had instead gone for a Benoit, Kimbrel, Chapman, a more "team player" putting the team before himself, I don't think it would have been as big of a blowout as it ended up being.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2017, 07:03 PM
 
18,883 posts, read 7,342,641 times
Reputation: 8071
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7express View Post
I said this at the time and I still believe it:





Maybe Chapman or Kimbrel wouldn't have wanted to pitch the 8th either but at the time neither was a World Champ (Chapman would get his a year later) so if it meant helping the team and put the team (and themselves) in a better situation to be a champion they would have been more willing. And as I also said in a later post I forget the exact quote but I said something to the effect of "If you get a Benoit, Kimbrel or Chapman a pitcher that is willing to the pitch the 8th, and Storen fails THAN you have a backup and can replace Storen with the pitcher you traded for. IF Storen fails in the 8th (which he did) and Papelbon isn't good because he REFUSED to pitched the 8th (and he wasn't good) than you have no other options and you are screwed." And that's exactly what happened! Obviously the Mets had the trade of that season with Cespedes and I think they are winning the division regardless of who the Nationals trade for with the 60+ games Cespedes had in August & September of that year, but if the Nats had instead gone for a Benoit, Kimbrel, Chapman, a more "team player" putting the team before himself, I don't think it would have been as big of a blowout as it ended up being.
I agree. You traded for a toxic clubhouse poison who would not be worth it had he converted 99% of save opportunities.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2017, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Trumbull/Danbury
6,541 posts, read 4,492,339 times
Reputation: 2477
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobNJ1960 View Post
I agree. You traded for a toxic clubhouse poison who would not be worth it had he converted 99% of save opportunities.


2 things about that season STILL bother me today that not a lot of people know.


1) Up until that trade (July 28, 2015) Storen had only blown 2 saves all season (out of I think 31 or 32 attempts) and the team ended up winning both of the games he blew anyways. So, really the team was 31 or 32 out of 32 in the games he closed when you factor in the 2 "blown saves" they ended up winning
2) Papelbum had a slightly better ERA (1.71 to 1.74 I think).....................however, in a game in June against the Rays Storen appeared to pitch the 9th inning of a game they were leading 16-1 at the time and preceded to give up 3 runs in the 9th that game. So, you take out that meaningless appearance and Storen probably has a better ERA.


That team did need bullpen depth, but really what team DOESN'T need bullpen depth?? The Yankees maybe?? What they didn't need, unlike this years team where the bullpen blew ANOTHER game, was a closer, especially a toxic, egotistical maniac closer at that!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2017, 08:23 PM
 
18,883 posts, read 7,342,641 times
Reputation: 8071
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7express View Post
2 things about that season STILL bother me today that not a lot of people know.


1) Up until that trade (July 28, 2015) Storen had only blown 2 saves all season (out of I think 31 or 32 attempts) and the team ended up winning both of the games he blew anyways. So, really the team was 31 or 32 out of 32 in the games he closed when you factor in the 2 "blown saves" they ended up winning
2) Papelbum had a slightly better ERA (1.71 to 1.74 I think).....................however, in a game in June against the Rays Storen appeared to pitch the 9th inning of a game they were leading 16-1 at the time and preceded to give up 3 runs in the 9th that game. So, you take out that meaningless appearance and Storen probably has a better ERA.


That team did need bullpen depth, but really what team DOESN'T need bullpen depth?? The Yankees maybe?? What they didn't need, unlike this years team where the bullpen blew ANOTHER game, was a closer, especially a toxic, egotistical maniac closer at that!
You traded for a guy, that no matter his stats, a sane GM would never want. There are not many constant cancers in MLB. He is one. If his ERA were 0.00, and Alderson obtained him, I would want Alderson instantly fired.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2017, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Trumbull/Danbury
6,541 posts, read 4,492,339 times
Reputation: 2477
Default 21-10

So this team has 10 losses on the season and the bullpen has half of those losses and played a role in 2 or 3 other games they ended up losing. Really, I think there's only 1 game the team lost that the bullpen DIDN'T have an effect on, which was the first Phillies series of the year where Jeremy Guthrie started and gave up double digit runs in the first inning, which ended up being loss number 2. A quick recap of the other 9 losses before we get into this weekend:
Loss 1: April 6 vs. Miami. Blanton loses after the team is up 1-0 after 7. Definite bullpen loss
Loss 3: April 9 @ Philadelphia. Strasburg gives up 3 runs, but a Zimmerman home run in the 9th ties it before Koda Glover gives the Phillies the walk off in the bottom half. Definite bullpen loss
Loss 4: April 12 vs. St. Louis. Scherzer gave up 3 runs through 6 innings and after getting completely shut down by Mike Leake they get a run in the 8th to give themselves momentum and within 2 at 3-1, but Glover, Solis & Blanton each gave up a run in the 9th. May not have won anyways, but the Cards closer at the time had a 9.64 ERA, and had Murphy & Zimmerman due up in the 9th so at least they had a chance if not for the bullpen. Not a bullpen loss, but the bullpen definitely had a big effect on the loss because it killed any potential rally they would have had.
Loss 5: April 15 vs. Philadelphia. Blanton 2 run homer in the 8th to lose it. Definite bullpen loss.
Loss 6: April 24 @ Colorado. After Jacob Turner gets the B team through 6 innings with a 4-3 lead the bullpen gives up 5 runs over the final 2 innings to lose for the first time in 9 games. Definite bullpen loss.
Loss 7: April 28 vs. Mets. They were already down 5-3 before Turner allowed 2 runs in the 8th before they responded with 2 runs themselves in the bottom half. This is probably the only other game where you could make the case it was the starter that lost it themselves.
Loss 8: April 29 vs. Mets. 3-2 game heading into the 8th where Romero & Kelley each gave up solo home runs. Much like the April 14 loss to the Cardinals, the starter (Strasburg) got hit with the loss, but the bullpen made sure there was no no decision with an implosion.
Loss 9: May 2 vs. Diamondbacks. D'backs scored 3 in the 4th to take a 4-3 lead and Roark left after 6 when it was still 4-3. Treinen & fat boy Blanton gave up a run each in the 7th and 9th to once again make sure there wasn't a rally to take Roark off the hook. The starter got the loss again, but the bullpen definitely played its part in making it happen.
Loss 10: May 7 @ Philadelphia. 5-2 lead into the bottom of the 8th Matt Albers gives up a 3 run homer to tie it, Treinen allows the walk off sac fly in the 9th to lose it. Definite bullpen losses.
So, there you have it: 10 losses HALF of which have come via the bullpen, and of the other 5 you could make a compelling case for 3 of them they assisted in losing. Imagine if this team had a competent relief pitcher on it's staff?? Rizzo should be in communication with Dayton Moore from KC every day regarding Kelvin Herrera. No joke they could be 28-3 or better (at least 26-5)!!!!!!! and completely running away in the so far awful NL East. Now onto the weekend set in Philly.
Friday: Nats 4 @ Phillies 2. Strasburg, Zimmerman (shocker!) and Rendon each had home runs.
Saturday: Nats 6 @ Phillies 2. Zimmerman had 3 RBI's including another homer, and Rendon added a 3 run homer for the Nats scoring while Cameron Rupp had both RBI's for the Phillies.
Sunday: Nats 5 @ Phillies 6 (10 innings). Touched on the ending up above. Werth had 2 homers, Rendon had another RBI (he's had 18 RBI's in the last 6 games) before Aaron Altherr had the tying homer in the 8th and Freddy Galvis walked off the Nats with a walk off sac fly.


Beltway series with the Orioles begins on Monday with the first 2 at OPACY and the final 2 at Nats Park. Even though ESPN separate them into 2 series even though the teams are the same and the umpires are the same, I just count it as 1. Then we'll see the Phillies AGAIN (geez we play them 12 times in the first 38 games and then go 100+ games and 3 months before we see them again, ridiculous!) for 3 at Nats Park next weekend, and than we'll go to Pittsburgh for 3 games against the Pirates next Tuesday-Thursday.
Kevin Gausman (1-3, 7.55) starts for the Orioles against Gio Gonzalez (3-0, 1.64) on Monday, Max Scherzer (4-2, 2.66) starts on Tuesday against Ubaldo Jimenez (1-1, 6.58), Wade Miley (1-1, 2.77) against Stephen Strasburg (3-1, 2.66) is the matchup on Wednesday, A.J. Cole (1-0, 1.50) and Dylan Bundy (5-1, 2.17) will be the matchup in the series finale on Thursday. All games in this series start at 7:05.
Nick Pavetta (0-2, 5.40) starts for the Phillies against Tanner Roark (3-1, 3.46) on Friday, Gonzalez (3-0, 1.64) starts against Vince Velazquez (2-3, 5.94) on Saturday and Scherzer (4-2, 2.66) starts against Jeremy Hellickson (4-1, 3.49) on Sunday. Friday & Saturday game times are 7:05 while Sunday's game is at 1:35.
Strasburg (3-1, 2.66) opens the Pirates series against Chad Kuhl (1-2, 5.54) Tuesday, Cole (1-0, 1.50) goes on Wednesday vs. Gerrit Cole (1-3, 3.14) and Tyner Glasnow (1-1, 6.97) starts the getaway game Thursday vs. Roark (3-1, 3.46). Tuesday & Wednesday games are 7:05, Thursday afternoon goes at 12:35.
I'm off to Italy for a week later tonight, I'll be back with all 3 series recaps next week when I get back, but anyone feel free to jump in on them while I'm gone!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2017, 02:07 AM
 
18,883 posts, read 7,342,641 times
Reputation: 8071
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7express View Post

I'm off to Italy for a week later tonight,
Enjoy!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-08-2017, 08:52 AM
 
4,229 posts, read 2,130,370 times
Reputation: 3801
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobNJ1960 View Post
You traded for a guy, that no matter his stats, a sane GM would never want. There are not many constant cancers in MLB. He is one. If his ERA were 0.00, and Alderson obtained him, I would want Alderson instantly fired.
This is baseball, not Boy Scouts. There is further too much over-reaction to E!-Entertainment rumors regarding Papelbon and too little regard for what the cost to acquire any of these "better options" would have been.

As noted, the Papelbon deal may indeed have been the worst deal of Rizzo's eight years as GM in DC, but that is because of how good the rest of his record is, not because the deal was a bad one at the time it was made.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top