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Old 10-19-2012, 05:01 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,609,608 times
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If I can play devil's advocate here....

I get the arguments against having wildcard teams play in the post-season. The arguments against it are based on the concept of fairness, with opponents claiming that it's not fair that a team like 98-win Washington has to face the possibility of losing to 88-win St. Louis. And it's even less fair that a team with 83-wins can win the World Series, as the Cardinals did in 2006.

The one thing I'll say is that not all 90+ win teams are equal. Keep in mind a lot of those win totals can come from a team dominating its own division, even if they are only mediocre against everyone else. Also, another thing to remember is that a lot can happen in a 162-game season, with injuries and acquisitions changing the dynamics tremendously. A team that had a rough three months from April through July can make acquisitions, coalesce, and gradually improve during the season. That's the way the game has always been played; it's just that now, more teams are eligible to enter the postseason.

If we're going to use W-L records as the sole basis for determining eligibility, we can, but fewer people are going to be interested in the game. And if you use that standard, then you'd have to basically go back to the old ways of doing things and just have no divisions and have the top teams from each league face each other in the WS.

Maybe that's the 'cure' for baseball purity's sake. Eliminate divisions. Eliminate inter-league play, and have the teams in the respective leagues play a relatively balanced schedule of games within their leagues. The top two teams in each league could play for the NLCS, and the pennant winners could play for the title.
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Old 10-19-2012, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,797,161 times
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Default ALCS in review


World Series 2012: A-Rod, Yankees out, Detroit Tigers in - YouTube!
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,886 posts, read 4,189,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic Toast View Post
Sorry, not buying it. If you take 14 teams in the NL out of contention near the end of the regular season, you will not have more people tuning in. Sure, Cincinnati and Washington DC would be enamored. But those games STL and Atlanta were playing down the stretch that meant something this year become irrelevant under your system. No relevant games on the west coast. Sorry, that is not a recipe for more interest. You can't eliminate 3 time zones from meaningful baseball and think that will improve interest.
Yes but eastern teams don't have the best record every year. Texas had the best record last year. The Angels and A's have fielded good teams in the past decade.

Whether or not my system would greatly increase interest is really irrelevant to my argument. It's a fundamentally unfair system that is in place now that rewards mediocre teams. A balanced and equal 168 game schedule is more fair and is a large enough sample size to say who the best team in each league is and should play for the WS. I mean 66% of the league already plays meaningless baseball by the time mid-July hits anyway so my system wouldn't really change that.

Also Atlanta wouldn't have had irrelevant baseball this year as they only finished 4 games behind the Nats/Reds for the best record in baseball. With 6 additional games (plus adding in the last three games of the year where they coasted because they were out of reach in the division and already locked into the WC) they might have had enough time to make a serious push. Same with San Fransisco. The Braves and the Giants both probably coasted the last 5 or 6 games because they were pretty well locked into their respective positions. If they still had to fight to get to the top of the heap to get to the WS they wouldn't have done that and that would have left them 12 or so games to make up a 4 game deficit. Not impossible.

Really if you look at it, the same number of teams fighting for the #1 spot would be more of less the same number of the teams that make the playoffs. I mean look at the AL this year, the Yankees didn't clinch the #1 seed until the last day. Texas, Baltimore, the A's, hell even the Rays would have been in contention the last 6-10 games. The difference is though it's not some absurd arbitrary "postseason" that functions almost completely the opposite of the 162 game 5 month long regular season.
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,886 posts, read 4,189,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
If I can play devil's advocate here....

I get the arguments against having wildcard teams play in the post-season. The arguments against it are based on the concept of fairness, with opponents claiming that it's not fair that a team like 98-win Washington has to face the possibility of losing to 88-win St. Louis. And it's even less fair that a team with 83-wins can win the World Series, as the Cardinals did in 2006.

The one thing I'll say is that not all 90+ win teams are equal. Keep in mind a lot of those win totals can come from a team dominating its own division, even if they are only mediocre against everyone else. Also, another thing to remember is that a lot can happen in a 162-game season, with injuries and acquisitions changing the dynamics tremendously. A team that had a rough three months from April through July can make acquisitions, coalesce, and gradually improve during the season. That's the way the game has always been played; it's just that now, more teams are eligible to enter the postseason.
Tell me how an 88 win St. Louis played in a better division and were deserving of playing the Braves? I'd say the Cardinals division was WORSE than the Braves! The Cards played in the same division with the worst team in baseball: the Astros, and the second worst team in baseball: the Cubs. The Pirates also tanked at the end of the season. The Braves played in the same division as the best team in baseball and our worst team in was the Marlins who still had 8 more wins than the Cubs who weren't even the worst team in the NL Central.

Also the Braves played the Cardinals 6 times during the season and beat them 5 of those times. The Braves had 6 more wins than the Cardinals and finished tied for the 4th best record in baseball while the Cardinals finished with 88 wins or tied with the Tigers for the 11th best record in baseball. Two teams that didn't make the postseason had a better record than the Cardinals. By no objective standard should the Cardinals have sniffed the postseason.

Quote:
If we're going to use W-L records as the sole basis for determining eligibility, we can, but fewer people are going to be interested in the game. And if you use that standard, then you'd have to basically go back to the old ways of doing things and just have no divisions and have the top teams from each league face each other in the WS.

Maybe that's the 'cure' for baseball purity's sake. Eliminate divisions. Eliminate inter-league play, and have the teams in the respective leagues play a relatively balanced schedule of games within their leagues. The top two teams in each league could play for the NLCS, and the pennant winners could play for the title.
That's exactly what I'm proposing. When the Astros make the leap to the AL there will be 15 teams in each league. Have each team play their 14 league rivals 12 times for a total of 168 games. The team with the best record goes the WS.
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,886 posts, read 4,189,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatTNGuy View Post
I guess the "best and most deserving teams" should find a way to avoid losing when it's most important.

I think it's funny that everybody is a critic/whiner until his team is the one benefitting. My team did not get home field advantage in the 2004 World Series despite the fact that it easily had the best record in baseball that year (105 wins), and it ended up getting swept by a Wild Card team. Such is life.
For most of the 1st half the season I thought my team (the Braves) were going to be the "beneficiaries" of the 2nd WC team and I hated it just as much. In fact I hate the playoffs in general yet at no point in the past decade would not having the postseason have helped my team make the WS. The Braves "benefited" from the WC 2 out of the last 3 years but I still don't like it.
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,886 posts, read 4,189,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
Unless you can show that the MLB is losing money because of the 'fatally flawed' playoff system, your argument is completely missing the point.

[broken record]Baseball is a sport. Major League Baseball is a business[/broken record]

You need to get over the idea that the World Series winner is in anyway the best team in baseball. The World Series winner is simply the Major League Baseball playoff winner. Think of it as two distinct seasons. The regular season and the playoffs. The regular season is as you know it. The division winners in the regular season, plus two wild card teams earn the right to participate in the playoffs. Once the playoffs start, everyone's record is 0-0 (except for deciding home field advantage).
Then why play the regular season? It's completely pointless. Why play for 162 games if it means nothing once you get to the postseason?
I mean if all we want is "intense" playoff action why don't we skip the regular season and put every team in a March Madness style bracket and have them play it out in the 3 game series until they get to the "Final Four" and then have them play 7 games series? I mean it'd be just as meaningful as the system now. I mean if the point of a championship isn't to reward the best team then what in the hell is the point? If you are just the "playoff winner" then who cares? It reduces baseball down to the meaningless nothingness. It'd be one thing if this were football and the season is so short that you don't have a large enough sample size, nor a long enough season to balance the schedules, to determine the best team through just a regular season.

I can see the point in the football playoffs but in baseball there is no reason to have it. In baseball the season is long enough to have a balanced schedule and to determine the two best teams in baseball.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,269,803 times
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Creating divisions starts you down a slippery slope in which you are constantly trying to compensate for the unfairness of arbitrary divisions, and as you keep trying to correct the error, you find yourself making more, which themselves need corrective measures. Until finally you have interleague play and even unequal schedules within the divisions. Compounded by some divisions playing by different rules than another, as MLB clutches at straws to fix something that was not broken. But is now.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:22 PM
FBJ
 
Location: Tall Building down by the river
39,615 posts, read 50,313,442 times
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The Cards maybe in some trouble now since they are going back to san francisco and the Giants have the momentum

When you are up 3-1 you have to close that out
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,797,161 times
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[quote=NorthGAbound12;26587567]Whether or not my system would greatly increase interest is really irrelevant to my argument.
Quote:
I disagree wholeheartedly.

[broken record]Baseball is a sport. Major League Baseball is a business[/broken record]

It's a fundamentally unfair system that is in place now that rewards mediocre teams. A balanced and equal 168 game schedule is more fair and is a large enough sample size to say who the best team in each league is and should play for the WS. I mean 66% of the league already plays meaningless baseball by the time mid-July hits anyway so my system wouldn't really change that.
Totally, absolutely, verifiably false.
Since 33% of the teams make the post season (10 out of 30) that would mean that all of the post season spots were clinched in mid-July.
On July 15th, 17 out of 30 teams had a 20% chance of making the playoffs, according to coolstandings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthGAbound12 View Post
absurd arbitrary "postseason"
In fact I hate the playoffs in general
You're more than welcome to quit watching baseball in October if you're that disinterested.

Quote:
at no point in the past decade would not having the postseason have helped my team make the WS.
That certainly goes without saying...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthGAbound12 View Post
Tell me how an 88 win St. Louis played in a better division and were deserving of playing the Braves? By no objective standard should the Cardinals have sniffed the postseason.
Yet, they are doing very well.

Quote:
Have each team play their 14 league rivals 12 times for a total of 168 games. The team with the best record goes the WS.
What if the two best teams are in the same league?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthGAbound12 View Post
Then why play the regular season? It's completely pointless. Why play for 162 games if it means nothing once you get to the postseason?
For one, to decide which teams will participate in the postseason.
Second, to make lots of money.

Quote:
I mean if all we want is "intense" playoff action why don't we skip the regular season and put every team in a March Madness style bracket and have them play it out in the 3 game series until they get to the "Final Four" and then have them play 7 games series?
Well...for one reason having half the teams each season only play 2 or 3 games would be absolutely ridiculous.

Quote:
I mean if the point of a championship isn't to reward the best team then what in the hell is the point?
To make money
[broken record]Baseball is a sport. Major League Baseball is a business[/broken record]
Lots of people enjoy the post season. People will pay money to go to playoff games. Also, most sports crown a champion at the end of the season. People like that type of resolution.

Quote:
It reduces baseball down to the meaningless nothingness.
What is baseball? What is its meaning?
It's a form of entertainment. Not sure what existential pedestal you've placed it upon.


There are a few flaws in your proposal and your thinking.
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,886 posts, read 4,189,763 times
Reputation: 4161
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Creating divisions starts you down a slippery slope in which you are constantly trying to compensate for the unfairness of arbitrary divisions, and as you keep trying to correct the error, you find yourself making more, which themselves need corrective measures. Until finally you have interleague play and even unequal schedules within the divisions. Compounded by some divisions playing by different rules than another, as MLB clutches at straws to fix something that was not broken. But is now.
Exactly. I realize my idea of just having the best team at the end of the regular season go straight to the WS will likely never happen but at the very least I would like to see the WC play in game eliminated, the divisions eliminated, inter-league play eliminated, have each league go to a balanced 168 game schedule. And if they must have playoffs have the the teams with the 4 best records go.
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