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Old 02-26-2013, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Florida
251 posts, read 377,156 times
Reputation: 259

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post

If not, then what is all this fuss and fury?

It just seemed like a rather large mistake to quote two stats that looked as much like BA/OBP as OBP/OPS. If even one person who devotes his life to the game of baseball doesn't know what you mean, then you probably did something wrong, which I didn't. So you did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post

But too many fans will laud a .280/.320/.450 hitter over a .250/.350/.450 hitter because Batting Average! Ignoring all the extra outs the .280 hitter makes.

And this player .281/.309/.362 is absolutely better than this player .271/.355/.401 when you look at the rest of their stats.






They are 2003 Carl Crawford (2.0 WAR) and 2010 Johnny Damon (2.6 WAR).
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,828,357 times
Reputation: 6637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel88 View Post
wOBA gives too much information. If I had ten seconds to pick the better player in a fantasy baseball draft being run by some sort of Bond villain who would blow the world up if I chose wrong, I'd definitely consider a broader based stat. Since I will never be looking at wOBA stats without also seeing exactly how those percentages were achieved, then they are of little use to me. OPS is nice for sluggers but most of my favorite types of players are not sluggers so I'm rarely impressed by it. WAR is the least useful of them all because it covers too much information and then spits out a universally un-agreeable figure. I'd rather see the numbers the WAR stat-man sees than his opinion of what they mean.

Basically I love looking at everything. If I want to dive in deeper I'll look up splits, and then obscure splits. If you're capable of explaining what WOBA means then shouldn't need to use it.
Nothing you say here makes a lick of sense to me.

You say that wOBA gives too much information. Why?
You say that you want to see 'exactly how those percentages were achieved'. What percentages are you talking about? There are no 'percentages' in wOBA. Their are linear weights. Is that what you mean? I suspect that you want to see the components that go into wOBA. The hits, doubles, triples, etc... You can look at those.

However, I kind of doubt that you could look at a bunch of stat lines and order them from most productive to least productive and give the number of runs produced by each. That's what wOBA does.

I can explain wOBA. Why shouldn't I use it? It a measure of total offense in terms of actual runs produced.

The same goes for WAR.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,828,357 times
Reputation: 6637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel88 View Post
And this player .281/.309/.362 is absolutely better than this player .271/.355/.401 when you look at the rest of their stats.

They are 2003 Carl Crawford (2.0 WAR) and 2010 Johnny Damon (2.6 WAR).
What? Damon's 2010 was almost certainly better than Crawford's 2003?
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Florida
251 posts, read 377,156 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
Nothing you say here makes a lick of sense to me.

You say that wOBA gives too much information. Why?
You say that you want to see 'exactly how those percentages were achieved'. What percentages are you talking about? There are no 'percentages' in wOBA. Their are linear weights. Is that what you mean? I suspect that you want to see the components that go into wOBA. The hits, doubles, triples, etc... You can look at those.
Yes that is what I meant and look at the hits, doubles, and triples is what I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
I can explain wOBA. Why shouldn't I use it? It a measure of total offense in terms of actual runs produced.
Again, you are probably looking at the ingredients to wOBA along with many other pertinet stats so why not look at everything and get the true value of the player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
The same goes for WAR.

I could list a dozen pairs of players who even you would agree are better than another dozen who have higher WAR's. I can't think of a more useless stat. We're all big boys here, we can and do look at how WAR is supposedly established.

Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
What? Damon's 2010 was almost certainly better than Crawford's 2003?
You're right, except the part about Damon's 2010 year almost certainly being better than Crawford's 2003. There is where you are wrong.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,828,357 times
Reputation: 6637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel88 View Post
Yes that is what I meant and look at the hits, doubles, and triples is what I do.
So tell me then...how do you look at doubles, triples, etc and know which player was more productive offensively?

Can you rate these players for me? In terms of total offense provided and in terms of offense per PA. And explain how you did so.

Player A: 668 PA, 609 AB, 184 H, 44 2B, 6 3B, 26 HR, 52 BB, 7 IBB, 4 HBP, 2 SF, 1 SH
Player B: 563 PA, 505 AB, 159 H, 28 2B, 0 3B, 22 HR, 45 BB, 4 IBB, 5 HBP, 5 SH, 3 SH
Player C: 530 PA, 454 AB, 136 H, 18 2B, 11 3B, 13 HR, 68 BB, 1 IBB, 0 HBP, 2 SH, 6 SH

Thanks.

Quote:
Again, you are probably looking at the ingredients to wOBA along with many other pertinet stats so why not look at everything and get the true value of the player?
Do you look at batting average?
Why don't you look at the number of hits divided by at bats?
Do you look at the number of at bats?
Why don't you look at the number of plate appearances minus the number of walks, sac hits, hit by pitch, or times reached base due to interference or obstruction?



Quote:
I could list a dozen pairs of players who even you would agree are better than another dozen who have higher WAR's. I can't think of a more useless stat. We're all big boys here, we can and do look at how WAR is supposedly established.
WAR doesn't tell us who is better. It tells us how many runs a player produced on the field through his hitting, baserunning and defense. A worse player can produce more runs.



Quote:
You're right, except the part about Damon's 2010 year almost certainly being better than Crawford's 2003. There is where you are wrong.
How so?

Last edited by filihok; 02-27-2013 at 12:24 AM..
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,334 posts, read 18,657,581 times
Reputation: 18803
Kestrel
Quote:
It just seemed like a rather large mistake to quote two stats that looked as much like BA/OBP as OBP/OPS. If even one person who devotes his life to the game of baseball doesn't know what you mean, then you probably did something wrong, which I didn't. So you did.
It is absurd to think of statistical information in terms of right and wrong. If I said that my house is painted blue with grey trimmings, would I then be rendered "wrong" because I did not include the fact that it has central heating?

My conclusion is this. You are someone who is unwilling to make the effort to appreciate the game utilizing the newer and more advanced metrics. You are certainly under no obligation to do so, but you apparently have some sort of resentment of those that do.

I regard that as an emotional problem and I'm uninterested in your emotional take on matters.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Florida
251 posts, read 377,156 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Kestrel


It is absurd to think of statistical information in terms of right and wrong. If I said that my house is painted blue with grey trimmings, would I then be rendered "wrong" because I did not include the fact that it has central heating?
This is almost a perfect analogy. A more accurate one would have been if I asked which house was yours and you said the blue and grey one. I would assume you meant mostly blue exterior with grey trimmings. But that would only be because my puny little brain wasn't advanced enough to know that you were actually describing the colors of your roof and mailbox. I mean, who cares about exterior paint any more? It doesn't really tell anything about the roof or mailbox.

Point is, while not irrelevant, this data is not what most people would think you're talking about.

Last edited by Kestrel88; 02-28-2013 at 09:14 AM..
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Florida
251 posts, read 377,156 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post

Can you rate these players for me? In terms of total offense provided and in terms of offense per PA. And explain how you did so.

Player A: 668 PA, 609 AB, 184 H, 44 2B, 6 3B, 26 HR, 52 BB, 7 IBB, 4 HBP, 2 SF, 1 SH
Player B: 563 PA, 505 AB, 159 H, 28 2B, 0 3B, 22 HR, 45 BB, 4 IBB, 5 HBP, 5 SH, 3 SH
Player C: 530 PA, 454 AB, 136 H, 18 2B, 11 3B, 13 HR, 68 BB, 1 IBB, 0 HBP, 2 SH, 6 SH



Do you look at batting average?
Why don't you look at the number of hits divided by at bats?
Do you look at the number of at bats?
Why don't you look at the number of plate appearances minus the number of walks, sac hits, hit by pitch, or times reached base due to interference or obstruction?
Those are basic equations done to save time and include ZERO opinions, theories or valuations about the player. When looking at hundreds of PA's, hits, and walks we all need a calculator to tell the difference between .285 and .295. Provide those for me and the positions of each player and I'll have an answer for you. If one is a DH, one a LF, and one a SS, then you already know the answer. My two examples both played the same position and I gave you the BA, OBP, and info to look up the rest.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,334 posts, read 18,657,581 times
Reputation: 18803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel88 View Post
This is almost a perfect analogy. A more accurate one would have been if I asked which house was yours and you said the blue and grey one. I would assume you meant mostly blue exterior with grey trimmings. But that would only be because my puny little brain wasn't advanced enough to know that you were actually describing the colors of your roof and mailbox. I mean, who cares about exterior paint any more? It doesn't really tell anything about the roof or mailbox.

Point is, while not irrelevant, this data is not what most people would think you're talking about.
Hmmmm...I think I have a solution. Since my posts are apparently so befuddling to you, why not just skip reading them?
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,828,357 times
Reputation: 6637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestrel88 View Post
Those are basic equations done to save time and include ZERO opinions, theories or valuations about the player.
Hmmm...
Of course there are opinions. Ball or strike? Fair or foul? Hit or error? Those are all opinions.
Theories? I guess not. I don't know of any theories in wOBA either. What do you believe is a theory included in wOBA?
Valuations? No. Those stats are not valuations. Which is why they are not so good for determining a player's value.

Quote:
When looking at hundreds of PA's, hits, and walks we all need a calculator to tell the difference between .285 and .295.
This is also what wOBA is. A calculation of the value of different baseball events.


Quote:
Provide those for me and the positions of each player and I'll have an answer for you. If one is a DH, one a LF, and one a SS, then you already know the answer. My two examples both played the same position and I gave you the BA, OBP, and info to look up the rest.
I only asked about offense. Defensive position is irrelevant.
I suppose you'll argue this, so go ahead and assume they all play the same position. You can even pick which one.
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