U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-13-2012, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
12,201 posts, read 10,416,173 times
Reputation: 11214

Advertisements

The only hope is the prospects landed by Miami work out over the long haul (as with the post-1997 fire sale), but man, what a ridiculous way to usher in the sophmore year of an already disappointing new ballpark.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-14-2012, 09:27 AM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,429,052 times
Reputation: 6814
On paper they got a better haul when they unloaded miggy & dontrelle - however, watching cabrera win the triple crown while andrew miller and cameron maybin essentially burst into flames doesn't exactly give a whole lot of promise

it's the double in that the fan base has lost complete confidence in the front office and their ability to get any real return on a player, to draft a player or to retain a player .... now attracting FAs is completely out of the question as well
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2012, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
40,950 posts, read 18,566,118 times
Reputation: 18673
The Marlins only won 63 games with the expensive players they are jettisoning, this move may not be as crass or evil as some people are making it out to be.

If they had been a successful team in 2012, a few wins shy of being a contender, then one might expect the team to do what it could to add the pieces needed to get them over the hump. What were they going to do with the team that they had on hand? Add a couple of 4.5 WAR guys for another 20 million and win 75 games in 2013?

There were great expectations for the team that Miami assembled for 2012. They fell way short of those expectations. Which would you rather have, a front office which insists that it was still a good team despite the crappy results and stands pat? Or a front office which admits that it badly screwed the pooch and is willing to start over?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2012, 10:35 AM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,429,052 times
Reputation: 6814
A front office that is competant would be a start ...... one that can get back higher ranked prospect would also be nice

one that doesn't promise payrolls of at least $80M only to turn around and absolutely gut the team again after a disapointing year

at least dodger fans should be happy - as soon as he can I'm sure Stanton will be putting on the blue
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2012, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,794,076 times
Reputation: 6636
Torii Hunter to the Tigers

https://twitter.com/JustinVerlander/...88599309357057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Verlander
Welcome @toriihunter48!
Huge upgrade over Brennan Boesch, Delmon Young, Andy Dirks, Quintin Berry, Ryan Raburn, Avasail Garcia, and Don Kelly...did I forget anyone?

Last edited by filihok; 11-14-2012 at 12:10 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2012, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
40,950 posts, read 18,566,118 times
Reputation: 18673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post

one that doesn't promise payrolls of at least $80M only to turn around and absolutely gut the team again after a disapointing year
It was a lousy team, why shouldn't they gut it?

After the Giants won it all in 2010, they had to make decisions about three guys who had been key elements to their success that season...Aubrey Huff, Pat Burrell and Cody Ross. My feeling at the time was that SF had gotten jackpot lucky with those three mediocre or declining players and that it would be foolish to expect that they were capable of repeating their contributions. But.....you can't break up a winner can you? You can't turn away these local heroes, can you? You can't gut this championship team, can you?

So, the Giants kept all three at a cost of 17 million dollars for 2011. What they got was:
Huff -0.6 WAR
Burrell 0.9 WAR
Ross -0.1 WAR

They won 86 games in 2011.

At the time the Marlins traded Hanley Ramirez, he had compiled 0.0 WAR for the 2012 season. He was making 15 million a year.
Ramirez WAR..'07-'12
'07 4.2
'08 6.5
'09 7.1
'10 2.6
'11 0.0
'12 0.0 (for Marlins)

They were extremely fortunate that LA was throwing money around like candy and took him off their hands. He is grossly overpaid and under productive.

Jose Reyes' contract runs for another five seasons and he is still owed 96 million bucks. For the Marlins he was okay, 2.8 WAR in 2012, but hardly worth the 17.6 million a year compensation. And since he will be 30 years old in 2013, is he likely to get better in the next five years or worse?

The Marlins are fortunate to be shedding these players, they were going to be costly obstructions to assembling a winning team, eating up a big percentage of the payroll and returning very little.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2012, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,794,076 times
Reputation: 6636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Jose Reyes' contract runs for another five seasons and he is still owed 96 million bucks. For the Marlins he was okay, 2.8 WAR in 2012, but hardly worth the 17.6 million a year compensation.
$ per WAR is expected to be around $6 million this season.

FanGraphs had Reyes at 4.5 WAR
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2012, 12:18 PM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,429,052 times
Reputation: 6814
you don't run a business through WAR calculations

they have torched any good will with the fans & community

they have severed themselves from anything that was remotely positive about this franchise

they have pretty much destroyed public trust and have butchered another generation of potential fans

they are alienating pretty much any decent player

they absolutley refused to give no-trade clauses to any FA signing - which is part of the reason why they overpay, they buy out that option .... which limits the return they can get when they ultimately have to move the deal

they have pretty much guaranteed that they will never win a "heads up" offer on any free agent of note as long as loria owns the team ....... there is zero trust there and they have nothing credible to sell

they make moves like chicken without heads .... just running in a circle and dying

if they didn't know at the deadline that this was their direction then it's even more shameful and knee jerk .... however, if they did know it just makes it even more baffling they didn't move JJ at that time or that they moved pretty much the only potentially ML ready 3B in their system for a no hoper in Carlos Lee ..... I'm no big fan of Matt Dominguez, but this team literally has nothing - I liked the move to get Cox from St.L, but they immediately sent him back to AA and noted he's far from ready

They traded Matt before getting Cox - but if you are going to blow it up and target another development prospect at 3B, then why get rid of a stopgap that is currently on your roster that the fans are invested in

They have shipped their best players for guys who if they fully plan out have the upside of "solid"

In the past they chose Ricky Nolasco over Anibal Sanchez when handing out deals - now Nolasco is another albatross they can't move that they are going to desperately try to dump for anything they can get

This team is great at selling low and getting very little in return

You've pretty much turned your team into a blazing dumpster fire and have cemented yourself as the laughingstock of baseball

Moves don't happen in a vacuum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2012, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,794,076 times
Reputation: 6636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
you don't run a business through WAR calculations

Of course you do, in part. Return on Investment is certainly a business term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
they have torched any good will with the fans & community

they have severed themselves from anything that was remotely positive about this franchise

they have pretty much destroyed public trust and have butchered another generation of potential fans

they are alienating pretty much any decent player
This I pretty much agree with
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2012, 12:40 PM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,429,052 times
Reputation: 6814
they also now run the risk of rushing up guys like Yelich & Fernandez because they need warm bodies and some level of excitement

the stadium still doesn't have naming rights, they aren't on some lucrative TV deal, they haven't filled plaza shops and other revenue sources, corporate sponsorship

this type of move limits their big picture ability to make money over the long run

everyone says that Loria is hyper competative and wants to win ... however, he has the mindset that if you aren't first or within spitting distance it's best to douse the field in gasoline, bury it in salt and then sell it at a fraction of value to buy land somewhere else to try it all again

marlins fans were generally fine with some of the moves and if they slow played these moves over the course of the next couple years while developing some young guys and at least providing an image of trying to be competative they could have saved some potential good will

instead the scorched earth policy has pretty much turned their only allies against them - they sold a change in approach (considering that the prior and resurrected approach was also a consistent failure) and then betrayed that pitch very quickly

right now they have nothing and will never have anything until they either luck into a WS win and hold that foundation for 3-5 years after the title or simply sell the club and let a new owner try to build the bridges
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top