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Old 04-16-2013, 05:02 AM
 
2,538 posts, read 4,030,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild100s View Post
So you guy enjoy the idea of there being an automatic out in the lineup? I don't like the fact that one league plays under a totally different set of rules. Either have the DH in both leagues or don't. The logic otherwise is just misguided.

That would be like the Eastern Conference having the 3-point line and the Western Conference not.
You do know that there are pitchers that hit really well. Mike Leake of the Reds is hitting around .300. To me this is something that GMs and managers do not take advantage of more. If you have a pitcher that is a decent hitter it gives you a huge bonus. Too many pitchers are babied and never forced to take BP. That is the manager's fault. Remember the Babe started out as a pitcher.
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
40,859 posts, read 18,557,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
What do you call players that aren't catchers?
Are you going Zen on us because you don't have an answer?

The question remains...if we cannot identify non pitchers with "position players", what is your suggestion for how we do identify them?

Until you provide us with the proper replacement, we will continue to employ the offensive "position player" tag, or at least I will. Pitchers will continue to suffer from the ego deflating recognition that their spot on the diamond isn't being referenced as a defensive position akin to the other eight slots. They might become so depressed as to quit baseball rather than endure the ongoing humiliation. We need your answer to save the game.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:05 AM
 
Location: NY
9,071 posts, read 15,029,788 times
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I'd really hate to see the DH go into the National League. For one, the difference in rules does not bother me greatly (although I would like to see the DH done away with in the AL).

Pitchers are part of the game, and should bat and field IMO. Pitchers who are good at batting, or even bunting or moving runners around give themselves an added advantage over ones who don't. Therefore, they benefit from being a more complete player.

Next, I like how it affects the strategy of the game. It adds challenges to managing the bench and bullpen through a season. When to pinch hit and when not to. Who to use (do I save my backup catcher in case of injury, or use him as a pinch hitter here). It also affects pitching changes (do I pull my starter with 2 outs in the 6th, knowing he leads off the 7th, do I see if he can get one more out, do I do a double switch, how does the double switch affect my bench availability for the 8th and 9th, will the opposing manager thwart my double switch by bringing in his southpaw specialist, etc etc).

I see far less bench strategy in the AL, as well as an increase in reliever "specialists" who get brought in to face 1 batter. Since there is no risk of losing your pitcher from a game due to the need of pinch hitting, the manager is more free to swap pitchers as need and situation dictate, with his concern only with the remaining available depth of the bullpen. In the NL, this also has to be weighed against the needs of the 9th spot in the order as well as his bench of position players, which could mean sticking with a reliever for more batters, etc.

It makes for a more interesting game... at least for me.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:38 PM
 
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So the DH should be kept out of the NL because folks enjoy the idea of managers mulling over pitching chances?
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Old 04-16-2013, 01:16 PM
 
Location: NY
9,071 posts, read 15,029,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild100s View Post
So the DH should be kept out of the NL because folks enjoy the idea of managers mulling over pitching chances?
The strategy of managing a bench and roster to win a game (or lose it when improperly managed) is part of the game.

Sorry, let me clarify: playing with 9 players at a time (only 9), with all getting a chance to bat and play in the field is part of the game.
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Old 04-16-2013, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkered24 View Post

Sorry, let me clarify: playing with 9 players at a time (only 9), with all getting a chance to bat and play in the field is part of the game.
That is part of the National League Game but isn't a feature of the American League Game.

There isn't any right and wrong here, only what suits a particular fan or does not.
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,790,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Are you going Zen on us because you don't have an answer?
It's just a question

Do we need a name for players who aren't catchers?
Players who aren't first basemen?
Players who aren't pitchers?

We already have names for each position. Why do we need names for every position sans some other position?
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
40,859 posts, read 18,557,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
It's just a question

Do we need a name for players who aren't catchers?
Players who aren't first basemen?
Players who aren't pitchers?

We already have names for each position. Why do we need names for every position sans some other position?
We do not need individual names which in particular distinguish someone as not a catcher. For example, if we have a first baseman we may identify him as "the first baseman", no need to inform us that he is not simultaneously the catcher. That is not limited to sports, you could identify the person cutting your hair as "the barber" without having to mention that he isn't a baseball catcher.

The need arises when it is a collective identification. For example, the familiar baseball debate concerning whether or not pitchers, who have the CY Young Award to themselves, should also be eligible for the MVP award. People will say, "The pitchers have their own award, so the ___________ players deserve an award for just themselves."

Currently that blank is filled by the commonly understood "position."

You would eliminate that commonly understood usage, but then the blank remains blank.

So, clearly there is a need for a word to use when employing the collective reference, and I have been asking you what you suggest. It is looking like you didn't think past the "get rid of it" part of your advocacy in this.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,790,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
We do not need individual names which in particular distinguish someone as not a catcher. For example, if we have a first baseman we may identify him as "the first baseman", no need to inform us that he is not simultaneously the catcher. That is not limited to sports, you could identify the person cutting your hair as "the barber" without having to mention that he isn't a baseball catcher.

The need arises when it is a collective identification. For example, the familiar baseball debate concerning whether or not pitchers, who have the CY Young Award to themselves, should also be eligible for the MVP award. People will say, "The pitchers have their own award, so the ___________ players deserve an award for just themselves."

Currently that blank is filled by the commonly understood "position."

You would eliminate that commonly understood usage, but then the blank remains blank.

So, clearly there is a need for a word to use when employing the collective reference, and I have been asking you what you suggest. It is looking like you didn't think past the "get rid of it" part of your advocacy in this.
I don't think that we do need it.

In your CY Young/MVP example, those people are incorrect anyway. Pitchers are eligible for the Cy Young, no other player is. That doesn't mean there's any reason to create a specific award that pitchers are not eligible for.

We have 9 (and a half if you consider the DH) positions on a baseball field. Each position has a name. I don't see a reason to have a label for "every position except pitcher" any more than a label for "every position except pitcher".

If we are specifically excluding a position then I think "non-shortstop" works just fine. Just as if I was referring to all barbers except Turkish barbers I'd say "non-Turkish barbers".
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
40,859 posts, read 18,557,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
I don't think that we do need it.

In your CY Young/MVP example, those people are incorrect anyway. Pitchers are eligible for the Cy Young, no other player is. That doesn't mean there's any reason to create a specific award that pitchers are not eligible for.



".
I made a little bet with myself that:
A) Instead of treating the example as an example of the need for the word, you would elude the actual issue by arguing about the internal rightness/wrongness of the issue used in the example. My actual point of course had nothing to do with the distribution of post season awards.
and
B) You still would not provide us with a term we may use when we wish to reference all the players on the team or on the field except the pitchers.

Good luck with your crusade although I do not anticipate your triumphing in my lifetime. One place to start your battle might be in editing the "Position Player" Wikipedia article which begins with:
Quote:
In baseball, a position player is a player who on defense plays as an infielder, outfielder, or catcher. This is generally all players on a team except for the pitcher, who is considered separate from the position players
Position player - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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