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Old 04-16-2013, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,820,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
B) You still would not provide us with a term we may use when we wish to reference all the players on the team or on the field except the pitchers.
We don't need one.

And if we do need one 'non-pitcher' works just fine.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,284 posts, read 18,638,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
We don't need one.

And if we do need one 'non-pitcher' works just fine.

Perhaps you do not, that the term exists in common use suggests many do.

And of course "non pitcher" does not work. Non pitchers are everyone and everything which are not pitchers. Your washing machine is a non pitcher. If I wish to identify all the players on a team collectively without including the pitchers, "Those guys who are not washing machines" isn't helpful.

Position players are the ones whose primary responsibility is producing runs when at bat and preventing them when in the field. Pitchers are are distinguished because they are the only ones charged with throwing the ball to the opposition batters. Two different jobs, it is certainly legitimate to reference one but not the other, and in order to do so there has to be a commonly understood term for doing this.

And there is.

And you want to eliminate it.
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,820,918 times
Reputation: 6637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Perhaps you do not, that the term exists in common use suggests many do.

And of course "non pitcher" does not work. Non pitchers are everyone and everything which are not pitchers. Your washing machine is a non pitcher. If I wish to identify all the players on a team collectively without including the pitchers, "Those guys who are not washing machines" isn't helpful.
Context | Define Context at Dictionary.com

Or have we been discussing containers used for pouring liquids this entire time?


Quote:
Position players are the ones whose primary responsibility is producing runs when at bat and preventing them when in the field.
So, NL pitchers are position players then.

Quote:
Pitchers are are distinguished because they are the only ones charged with throwing the ball to the opposition batters. Two different jobs,
That is not correct. NL pitchers have the exact same job as every other NL player. They just have an extra job on top of it.


Quote:
it is certainly legitimate to reference one but not the other, and in order to do so there has to be a commonly understood term for doing this.

And there is.

And you want to eliminate it.
"Non-pitcher" works fine if one wishes to talk about players at every position other than player.
"Position player" is technically incorrect since pitcher is one of 9 defensive positions on a baseball field.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,284 posts, read 18,638,985 times
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A forum search of "position players" 'filihok' produces 65 posts outside of this particular thread where you have employed the term "position players."

If as you argue, the term is not needed, why did you feel the need to employ it 65 different times?
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,820,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
A forum search of "position players" 'filihok' produces 65 posts outside of this particular thread where you have employed the term "position players."

If as you argue, the term is not needed, why did you feel the need to employ it 65 different times?
For the same reason I used to think that batting average, RBI, wins and losses, and ERA were important - it was what I was told and I never thought about it.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post
For the same reason I used to think that batting average, RBI, wins and losses, and ERA were important - it was what I was told and I never thought about it.
You do not do Sabermetrics good service by comparing substantive changes in understanding the nature of the game to this particular semantic eccentricity of yours. Calling non pitchers "position players" is a convenience in common use, not something which leads to deep misunderstandings of value.

Toss away some of your credibility points arguing this unimportant matter and you have less in the bank when the time comes for the critical issues.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,820,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
You do not do Sabermetrics good service
What has this, or me, to do with sabermetrics?
I'm just a dude who likes to talk about baseball

Quote:
Calling non pitchers "position players" is a convenience in common use, not something which leads to deep misunderstandings of value.
I disagree.
First, "non-pitchers" is no less convenient than "position players". Hell, it's only 3 syllables as compared to 5, arguably more convenient.
Second, if saying "non-pitchers" could lead one to conclude the discussion was about washing machines the phrase "position players" could easily lead that same idi...individual to conclude the discussion was about quarter backs and lotus blossom.
Third, too many people, IMO, already feel that pitchers are not position players, though they play the most demanding position on the field , that they are somehow different than the other 8 players on the field with them, that they shouldn't even be allowed/required to hit.

We typically don't even consider the contributions of pitchers the same way that we consider them for other players.

For example, pitchers like Mike Leak, Clayton Kershaw and Carlos Zambrano have produced about 1 extra WAR each over the last 2.1 seasons when given credit for the things that non-pitchers are given credit for. Compare that to pitchers like Johnny Cueto, Tommy Hanson, and Aaron Harang who lose 1 WAR in value over that same time period.

It's quite obvious that not considering pitchers as position players does lead to misunderstanding of their value.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,284 posts, read 18,638,985 times
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filihok
Quote:
What has this, or me, to do with sabermetrics?
I'm just a dude who likes to talk about baseball
Is this modest pretense or are you genuinely unaware of the image you have constructed for yourself on this forum?


Quote:
It's quite obvious that not considering pitchers as position players does lead to misunderstanding of their value.
However it does not seem quite as obvious to you that that despite the convenience of using "position player" to identify non pitchers, no one is arguing that the pitcher does not play a position.

It is just an identification, not a value judgment.
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
13,293 posts, read 12,820,918 times
Reputation: 6637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
filihok

Is this modest pretense or are you genuinely unaware of the image you have constructed for yourself on this forum?
Whatever image others have of me says more about them than it does me



Quote:
However it does not seem quite as obvious to you that that despite the convenience of using "position player" to identify non pitchers, no one is arguing that the pitcher does not play a position.

It is just an identification, not a value judgment.
An improper identification.
Pitchers and position players surely implies that a pitcher is not a position player.
Our perceptions shape our values. How often does a pitcher's batting record come up when discussing a pitcher's value? There are significant differences between pitchers, yet this is rarely considered.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,284 posts, read 18,638,985 times
Reputation: 18791
filihok
Quote:
Whatever image others have of me says more about them than it does me
Okay, so we are going with the pretense. You have spent years on this forum arguing on behalf of advanced metric analysis, but the idea that the readers here would associate you with sabermetrics....gosh, never dawned on you?

Sure, right.

Regardless, I appreciate what you have been doing here, you make the forum worthwhile and provide interesting and useful information. In this one particular crusade, I think you are wasting your time.
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