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Old 04-10-2013, 06:21 PM
 
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OK, while I'm generally a fan of the new daily inter-league play, on thing has got me nervous. The possibility of the DH making its way to the National league. To me this would be a tragedy for the game. While it may not seem like much, it completely alters the game. Not only does it add an extra power bat in to the lineup, it takes away almost any need to make crucial personnel changes in the late innings. Unless you are desperate for a specific match up there is little reason to sub someone in. No need to pull a guy because you have to get a hit, even if he is still pitching well. While I know the game has always evolved, to me this would purely be a financial change mainly to benefit the players union. Veterans love the DH, it gives them another 3-5 years playing time. Pitchers love it because they don't have to take BP and they know they will not get yanked early simply to help out the offense. While it may provide slightly more offense, I prefer to see a well managed game where strategy still matters.
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
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Well, I wonder what the results of a poll by the fans would be. Do they (in essence) like AL play over NL play due to the DL?

If 90% of the fans want a NL DL, then why not?
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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I consider that "more strategy" argument against the DH to be nonsense. No one goes to the park saying "Wow! If we're lucky we'll get to see Dusty Baker make a double switch in the lineup!" No one pays any attention to stats about the outcomes of such things, no one ever gets singled out as the master of late inning strategy..in short, no one behaves like what you state above is actually important to them, although some, like you, insist on saying it.

Further, even if this loss of strategy is as aesthetically damaging as you claim, it is offset by the removal of the blight of having to watch pitchers try and bat. What is so great about having eight slots in the order occupied by professional hitters, and the ninth spot occupied by someone who would not be in the big leagues if hitting was the only criteria?

Why not insist that on the days when they are not pitching, the pitchers have to play one of the position slots? Wouldn't that be more "pure", wouldn't that generate a great deal more substitutions and strategy moves?
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I consider that "more strategy" argument against the DH to be nonsense. No one goes to the park saying "Wow! If we're lucky we'll get to see Dusty Baker make a double switch in the lineup!" No one pays any attention to stats about the outcomes of such things, no one ever gets singled out as the master of late inning strategy..in short, no one behaves like what you state above is actually important to them, although some, like you, insist on saying it.
Hey, that's your opinion, but I doubt you care much about the game either. I for one love it when a manager makes a great move and it pays off. People complain about baseball being boring. If they take your view of it then I guess it is.
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
I doubt you care much about the game either..
I see, the only real fans are the ones who are in harmony with your views.

The "I care about the game" representation is just as vacuous as the "I want to see that strategy" argument. Neither of us enjoy any special status as fans.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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I enjoy the strategy that comes with the pitcher hitting.

I don't know how anyone can say that pitchers hitting doesn't involve more strategy. A double switch, though maybe not exciting, is a strategic move and it is a strategic move that is more common in the NL than the AL due to pitchers hitting.

There's also more strategy involved with removing pitchers. In the AL, the manager removes the pitcher when he feels that another pitcher will be more effective (or pitch count, or other things). In the NL, the manager may remove a pitcher for all of the same reasons as in the AL, however the manager should also consider when the pitcher is due to bat. Does the manager remove the pitcher and replace him with a reliever if the pitcher is due up next inning or leave him him so he can pinch hit for him? Does the manage remove the pitcher and double switch? Does the manager replace him and let the reliever hit? Does the manager replace him and pinch hit for the reliever? These may not be exciting things that I hope to see when I go to a ball game, but those questions do make the game more interesting for me.

And what is so great about having 8 positions in the lineup that both attempt to score runs and hold the opposition from scoring, 1 position that attempts to score runs, and another position that attempts to prevent the opposition from scoring? 9 positions that attempt to both score and prevent the opponent from scoring makes more sense to me.

The blight of watching pitchers bat?

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/wp-conte...rshawHomer.gif

What about the blight of watching poor defensive players?
The blight of watching poor runners?
Pro-DH people who are so turned off by watching less than optimal hitting pitchers are perfectly content to watch less than optimal defensive players and runners and hitters at other positions.


I've got an idea for an optimal league. There are plenty of minor league players whose deficiencies at a single skill keep them from being major league players. There are also minor league players who excel at a single skill but lack the others to make them useful major leaguers. Why not create a league where players only have to perform their optimal skills.

A bunch of minor league CFers roaming the OF and SSs on the infield. Who cares if they can't hit?
All those backup first basemen who aren't good enough to be starting first basemen. Load up this new league's lineups with those guys; they're all better hitters than most major league catchers, infielders and outfielders. Dee Gordon might not be a major league quality player, but he's certainly a better runner than most major leaguers.

Gather all of these guys up and let them play. The over all quality of the league should be better than the major leagues.

That's what we want to see, right? The optimal players
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok View Post

Gather all of these guys up and let them play. The over all quality of the league should be better than the major leagues.

That's what we want to see, right? The optimal players
Extreme hypotheticals are typically among the weapons employed in this DH war. Why not.....followed by a seemingly preposterous reordering of baseball custom.

We might consider how much we are all prisoners of perception. What we are born into, or in this case what prevailed at the time we became fans, will always to a degree seem like the norm, and all subsequent changes will seem like deviations or corruptions. However, eventually generations are born into the era when those deviations are now part of the norm, and they will be defended as such.

The lesson is that baseball rules and customs can be anything. If the DH had been put in place in both leagues in 1904 and been there ever since, today we would be scoffing and producing excellent arguments as to why the idea of instead of having the DH, we will let the pitcher bat for himself, is absurd and would ruin the game. "What!?" we would be saying "lose the 9th hitter in the order to so some substandard batters can take their hacks? The benefit of the supposed added strategy for the managers makes up for that?"

Consequently, it seems to me that the defense of strategy and the double switches, is really being overstated by the advocates for them. Do such things truly make a difference in your enjoyment of a ballgame? When the Red Sox won those four straight games over the Yankees for the '04 AL pennant, were you caught up in those games or were you thinking about how much better they would be if only they let the pitchers bat? When the Cardinals beat the Rangers in Game Six of the '11 Series, did you once think.."Good thing this game is being played in a NL park, otherwise the DH would be ruining it?"

Compared to the negative impact people are saying the DH has, how much of a negative impact is it actually making?

At bottom, like it or not, the AL DH is here to stay and if any change is made, it will be to alter the NL as well, not revert to the pre DH age. The reason is that the MLBPA is a strong supporter of the DH. It adds a position which may be filled by a veteran who can still command a good sized salary even if he is no use with a glove. There are more position players in the Union than pitchers, and those position players all know that the day might come when their only means for hanging on is the DH slot. The Union isn't going to allow that to vanish, the Union will never vote to do away with high paying positions which are typically occupied by veterans who are long standing union members.
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Extreme hypotheticals are typically among the weapons employed in this DH war. Why not.....followed by a seemingly preposterous reordering of baseball custom.
I'd really like to see this league. There's a lot of good players who don't get to play because they can't hit or field (more of the latter).

Quote:
Consequently, it seems to me that the defense of strategy and the double switches, is really being overstated by the advocates for them. Do such things truly make a difference in your enjoyment of a ballgame? When the Red Sox won those four straight games over the Yankees for the '04 AL pennant, were you caught up in those games or were you thinking about how much better they would be if only they let the pitchers bat? When the Cardinals beat the Rangers in Game Six of the '11 Series, did you once think.."Good thing this game is being played in a NL park, otherwise the DH would be ruining it?"
No. But this isn't representative of most games.

Do I enjoy AL baseball? Yes
Do I enjoy NL baseball more? Yes
That's all I'm saying.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I see, the only real fans are the ones who are in harmony with your views.

The "I care about the game" representation is just as vacuous as the "I want to see that strategy" argument. Neither of us enjoy any special status as fans.
Sorry, that wasn't what I was implying. When I say "the game" I mean the intricacies and strategy that goes in to it, not simply watching it as a fan. If you're only a fan of watch a pitcher and batter dual it out then that is fine, but you're missing a big part of what is there. With the DH you can almost eliminate the manager, because the players take the majority role.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velvet Jones View Post
Sorry, that wasn't what I was implying. When I say "the game" I mean the intricacies and strategy that goes in to it, not simply watching it as a fan. If you're only a fan of watch a pitcher and batter dual it out then that is fine, but you're missing a big part of what is there. With the DH you can almost eliminate the manager, because the players take the majority role.
Okay.

Among the responsibilities of a manager, I think that in game strategy is the least important. My theory is that anyone who has played 100 games of Strat-O-Matic baseball will have developed an excellent sense of which moves tend to work and which do not...and that in general, the differences are so small that these decisions are really a crapshoot, as likely to backfire as to help. I just don't think that running a team during a ballgame requires any sort of exceptional intelligence. Who can't figure out when and who to platoon? Who can't identify whether it is time for one run strategies in an inning or not? Who doesn't know to guard the lines in late innings? Who doesn't know not to be careless with the employment of your backup catcher? What manager has ever become famous for his special cunning in bringing in his infield or leaving it at double play depth? Can you identify a single famous moment in baseball history where the critical factor in determining the outcome was either the manager's clever choices on a double switch, or his blunder in this move?

Further, thanks to the work of Sabermetrics, we now have available to us the precise odds associated with many of the in game potential moves. We know exactly when a manager is going with the house odds and when he is defying them on a hunch. Automation?

Finally, it is argued that the DH makes pitching management automatic because the concern for the need for a pinch hitter has been removed. If so, why did the single most famous decision of this century so far regarding keeping a pitcher in or removing him, take place in an AL game? I reference Grady Little leaving Pedro Martinez to start the 8th inning of Game Seven in 2003 ALCS. If the DH makes such moves automatic, why was that move so famously controversial?

Last edited by Grandstander; 04-11-2013 at 01:57 PM..
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