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Old 06-27-2013, 01:06 PM
 
3,944 posts, read 7,534,828 times
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I follow the Mariners and the Dodgers. The fans of both teams are unhappy with the managers. I read the same complaints about both. Sometimes I forget which website I am on.

They miss runs that could have been important because they rarely use the bunt.

When players come back from rehab, they start them slowly so they get plenty of rest and don't get hurt. (Isn't that what the rehab was for?)

They stick with pitchers they shouldn't (Mattingly and his "closer" League), and pull pitchers who are doing well (Wedge and his closer Wilhelmson).

When a player is "hot," they give him a day off to rest.

(I've got a bunch more about Mattingly, but they don't apply to Wedge, so I'll leave them out.)

Two questions:

1. Would I see the same complaints if I were reading the comments from fans of other teams, or do my teams really have the most-disliked managers?

2. Have teams always protected and coddled the players the way they do now?
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:47 AM
 
364 posts, read 458,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sll3454 View Post
I follow the Mariners and the Dodgers. The fans of both teams are unhappy with the managers. I read the same complaints about both. Sometimes I forget which website I am on.

They miss runs that could have been important because they rarely use the bunt.

When players come back from rehab, they start them slowly so they get plenty of rest and don't get hurt. (Isn't that what the rehab was for?)

They stick with pitchers they shouldn't (Mattingly and his "closer" League), and pull pitchers who are doing well (Wedge and his closer Wilhelmson).

When a player is "hot," they give him a day off to rest.

(I've got a bunch more about Mattingly, but they don't apply to Wedge, so I'll leave them out.)

Two questions:

1. Would I see the same complaints if I were reading the comments from fans of other teams, or do my teams really have the most-disliked managers?

2. Have teams always protected and coddled the players the way they do now?
Excellent observations, and things I've thought about too.

A1: I'm a Cardinals fan, and during the LaRussa decade, my father and I also wondered the same thing (especially the taking out of "hot" players, and pitchers that are rolling). It still happens, though I think less frequently, with Matheny in charge. He doesn't generally do things that make me crawl up the wall like LaRussa did, but there's a similar train of thought with some of his actions as you're getting with the Mariners and Dodgers.

A2: Players were not coddled like they are today, but there are lots of reasons for it.

-In the first half of the 20th century, professional ball players often had bodies that were "naturally" strong, as opposed to "gym" strong. They often did real work on farms and other places during the off-season. They were smaller, on average, than today's massively-muscled pros. These were people who had seen the Great Depression, and knew the value of a dollar, and didn't like being idle. It was a different time.
-Up until maybe the 60s or 70s, pitchers went to the mound expecting to throw nine innings. Today, this is the exception rather than the rule. It's now considered an "feat" to complete a game. There are many things people think this is attributable to, but I think bigger, stronger, more difficult hitters are likely the main culprit. Then again, the pitchers are in general, bigger and stronger too, so maybe they're throwing so hard there is simply more stress and force put into their bodies during play?
-Medical science wasn't as good as it is now, and I think this probably had an effect on certain injuries going unnoticed, or ill-treated.


My $0.02.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
12,201 posts, read 10,436,423 times
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Liquid Sword pretty much summed up your second question; for question #1, I'd say it's pretty much the norm throughout sports that a) your manager/head coach is an idiot when the team loses and b) a genius or at least not completely terrible when they win.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Lewes, Delaware
3,466 posts, read 3,153,935 times
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So much in baseball is about tradition, an 8th inning guy, then a closer no matter what. I can't stand that. In baseball the 8th inning guy could come in and throw 6 pitches, get 3 outs and he's on the bench for the closer.

The clean up hitter batting 4th and the best hitter hitting third is the same thing. Baseball more than any other sport lives off its tradition, sometimes for the better and sometimes to the detriment of tradition.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Spring Hill FL
552 posts, read 614,888 times
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Well Im a Rays fan and Joe Maddon seems to always be making the right moves for us, so no complaints here!
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:24 AM
 
Location: NJ
804 posts, read 1,380,321 times
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A lot of fans second-guess managerial decisions and with perfect 20/20 hindsight, the complaints are abundant for most, if not all teams. As a Yankees fan, I'm sick of the Girardi criticism
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Old 07-22-2013, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,346,398 times
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They
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Sword View Post
Excellent observations, and things I've thought about too.

A1: I'm a Cardinals fan, and during the LaRussa decade, my father and I also wondered the same thing
The OP complained about the managers not using the bunt, and through the LaRussa years, I complained consltantly about TLR using the bunt overly often. He regularly had his number two hitter bunting when the leadoff man got on first. If he is going to always bunt with his number two hitter, why doesn't he put the pitcher in the second spot in the batting order? I think it cost him a post season series at least once and maybe twice, wasting his number two hitter (batting around .300) by either using the bunt, or have him square around to bunt early and get behind in the count.

Sabermetrically, unless your batter is below .200, the bunt from first to second is the stupidest play in baseball, and most managers never figure that out. It reduces the run expectancy by about 0.2 runs, and costs your batting order about 0.7 bases. (The league average position player OPS is .700 when they swing away and .000 when they bunt. Also, they advance the runner 0.7 bases when they swing away and 1.0 bases if they bun successfully -- I do not know the successful Sac rate, but I bet it is not much over 0.7, so bunting gains no bases at all by the runner, and throws away the batter.

Last edited by jtur88; 07-22-2013 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Northern Arizona
1,248 posts, read 3,087,388 times
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I'm a Reds fan and I'm counting the days until Dusty is gone. Nothing he does makes an ounce of sense, and god forbid he ever shows any urgency when it comes to playing games that matter.
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge
2,423 posts, read 3,146,404 times
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Mike Scioscia fits the OP's description. Many of his moves are questionable. The Angels are notorious first pitch swingers. They go up to the plate to hack and many times the opposing pitchers record the 3 outs with less than 10 pitches. I miss the Scioscia of before when he called for sacrifice bunts, stealing bases, sending runners from 1st to 3rd and suicide squeezes. His teams would always put the pressure on. The Angels are now a sinking ship. The fire sale starts soon and Hamilton is a bust!

-Cheers!
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,147 posts, read 18,609,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyenative01 View Post
I'm a Reds fan and I'm counting the days until Dusty is gone. Nothing he does makes an ounce of sense, and god forbid he ever shows any urgency when it comes to playing games that matter.
There are different types of managers and it is possible for each type to be successful. I sat through years of inexplicable Dusty Baker decisions and post game comments when he skippered the Giants and came to realize that Dusty was of the "Peerless leader" school of managers. The Peerless Leader type is the sort whose strength lies in keeping a harmonious, focused clubhouse, not in an advanced understanding of the in game strategies. The Peerless Leader leads by example. Always focused, intolerant of distractions, suppresses controversies and feeds pablum to the media to keep them from blowing things out of proportion. The main dynamic at work is that the players will stay professional and give a maximum effort because to not do so is to let down the Peerless Leader and if he has done things correctly, no one on the club wants to be that guy.

The Peerless Leader excels at getting the players ready to play, and then gets out of their way and lets them play. It can work just fine, Dusty has been successful with each of the three teams he has managed. Other Peerless leader types...Joe Torre, Sparky Anderson, Ralph Houk.
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