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Old 10-26-2013, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,474,678 times
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Cards are 0-for-4 in sac-fly situations, three Ks and a popup by Kelly, who came the closest to delivering.

Now Matheny has a tie, he's used up all his pitchers, the Red Sox still have Uehara, He's wasted Descalso, the Sox still have Napoli,

Which is exactly how Matheny got a regular season record of 6-6 in extra inning games.

Last edited by jtur88; 10-26-2013 at 09:38 PM..
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,372 posts, read 18,667,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sskink View Post
OK, technically you got me. so I'll rephrase: "Some things cannot be explained by currently available statistics."

With the attention paid to pitch counts, I imagine # of throws to first will be among the first things measured, along with effectiveness out of the stretch vs. full windup and a bunch of other things because, well, people like you hate having people like me point out holes.
When it has been measured, then you would be in a position to point out any holes to "people like me" whatever that is supposed to mean. Right now you have no evidence, merely some general speculation on your part. "People like me" see no reason to pay any attention to such musings.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,372 posts, read 18,667,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Cards are 0-for-4 in sac-fly situations, three Ks and a popup by Kelly, who came the closest to delivering.

Now Matheny has a tie, he's used up all his pitchers, the Red Sox still have Uehara, He's wasted Descalso, the Sox still have Napoli,

Which is exactly how Matheny got a regular season record of 6-6 in extra inning games.
Matheny knew that he could make those moves early because he still had the obstruction play in his pocket.


Entertaining game.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,474,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Matheny knew that he could make those moves early because he still had the obstruction play in his pocket.
Well, that will be talked about for a long time. Imagine if this was Game 7. It is a very clearcut call. A fielder who is not holding or fielding the ball has the obligation to be out of the way of a runner. 3B ump Joyce made the call immediately. It is not relevant to the call, but Craig would have been safe easily if the base path had not been obstructed. But only the contact was necessary to create obstruction and an automatic award of the base. In fact, there doesn't even have to be contact, but if there is contact it makes the umps job a lot easier. The only argument would be that Craig was outside the baseline when he collided with Middlebrooks, but I don't think he was.

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner. If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered "in the act of fielding a ball." It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and missed, he can no longer be in the "act of fielding" the ball. For example: an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner, he very likely has obstructed the runner.

I think if Craig had abandoned his effort to score, and gone back to third, Obstruction might not have been called. I saw a play in which Miguel Tejada ran into a fielder, between third ahd home, who was crossing the line to back up third. Tejada just stood there and waved his arms and pointed, and was tagged out. The umpire ruled that Tejada had abandoned his effort to reach a base, and therefore obstruction could not be upheld.

Last edited by jtur88; 10-26-2013 at 10:26 PM..
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Currently living in Reddit
5,655 posts, read 5,719,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Well, that will be talked about for a long time. Imagine if this was Game 7. It is a very clearcut call. A fielder who is not holding or fielding the ball has the obligation to be out of the way of a runner. 3B ump Joyce made the call immediately. It is not relevant to the call, but Craig would have been safe easily if the base path had not been obstructed. But only the contact was necessary to create obstruction and an automatic award of the base. In fact, there doesn't even have to be contact, but if there is contact it makes the umps job a lot easier. The only argument would be that Craig was outside the baseline when he collided with Middlebrooks, but I don't think he was.

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner. If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered "in the act of fielding a ball." It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and missed, he can no longer be in the "act of fielding" the ball. For example: an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner, he very likely has obstructed the runner.

I think if Craig had abandoned his effort to score, and gone back to third, Obstruction might not have been called. I saw a play in which Miguel Tejada ran into a fielder, between third ahd home, who was crossing the line to back up third. Tejada just stood there and waved his arms and pointed, and was tagged out. The umpire ruled that Tejada had abandoned his effort to reach a base, and therefore obstruction could not be upheld.
The way the rule is written, Joyce had no choice BUT to call obstruction. Excellent work by Joyce and also by DeMuth to immediately recognize Joyce's call while also paying attention to the play.

There's a fantastic book out there on umpiring, "As They See 'Em" by Bruce Weber. In reading that you really sense that while working the WS is an ump's dream, it's also something they dread - no ump wants to be the focus on national TV in a game-deciding play in the WS - especially after Deckinger had death threats for a decade after his WS call. Hopefully no radio station or interwebs kook is going to be posting Joyce's home address suggesting retribution.
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:03 AM
 
10,346 posts, read 12,350,309 times
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It was a valid call......Middlebrooks even lifted his legs to further trip the runner.....intentional or not the call was good. Sox need to win tonight before going back to Fenway!
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:12 AM
 
16,541 posts, read 21,031,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by City Guy997S View Post
It was a valid call......Middlebrooks even lifted his legs to further trip the runner.....intentional or not the call was good. Sox need to win tonight before going back to Fenway!
Jtur88 and City Guy997S are right. Taking a look at that replay Middlebrooks clearly lifted his legs at the very end. The runner couldn't see the ball thrown behind him as he was trying to get over Middlebrooks. And like Jtur88 stated above the umpire immediately made the call.

Credit the Red Sox for coming back twice though. What a game!
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Currently living in Reddit
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
When it has been measured, then you would be in a position to point out any holes to "people like me" whatever that is supposed to mean.
"Fundamentalist" comes to mind.

Not as in "baseball fundamentals", but as in "there will be no dancing!"

I find most Sabremetrics arguments interesting and I'll often use Sabremetrics to make points myself, but being naturally anti-dogmatic, I'm generally dubious of positions where the person arguing a point is slavish to the statistics without regard to context.

It's a game. An entertainment.

Now, in the case of Brock, IMO it's less a question of whether he deserves to be in the HoF, it's more a question of how/why Tim Raines isn't if judged by the same criteria. The voters saw what they saw in Brock and voting accordingly in respect to his performance and impact to his team in relation to his peers playing at the same time. So there's context involved. That context includes postseason for BrockThat Brock went in on 1st ballot was surprising in light of some who didn't. But not that he's in.

What will be interesting is to what degree Brock's post-season accomplishments may/may not help Beltran's borderline case for HoF induction when that time comes, assuming Beltran continues to produce at near-current levels in this and subsequent post-seasons.
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,474,678 times
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Another thing to keep in mind -- Obstruction does not automatically award a base, nor does it make a dead ball. It just nullifies an out on a runner who was obstructed. 3B ump signalled that he observed obstruction, but that is all. The play continues to unfold until no further play is possible, and then any runner who is put out after being obstructed is ruled safe at the base he was trying to reach.

I think the official scoring got it wrong. Middlebrook was charged with an error E-5.. I think the scoring ought to be whatever it would have been had no obstruction occurred and the runner safe. In this case, Craig scored on E-2, wild throw by the catcher. as would have been the case with no obstruction. How does Saltalamacchia get off the hook?

Note that this the second straight game won by the Cards by virtue of a wild throw to third by a fielder covering the plate.
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Houston
22,644 posts, read 11,669,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post

Note that this the second straight game won by the Cards by virtue of a wild throw to third by a fielder covering the plate.
Reminds me a bit of the 2006 WS where throwing errors did the Tigers in.
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