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Old 03-18-2014, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1986pacecar View Post
I tend to believe that and it's not exactly like the HOF is populated with gentlemen of high esteem. It's full of racists, misogynists, drunks and morally deficient men of questionable character. Then again, I think Pete Rose belongs too.
Put that way, I see Pete qualifying as misogynistic and morally deficient. I'm unaware of his racial attitudes or drinking habits.

I see the Hall of Fame as an honor. I do not see participating in a scheme to defraud the fans as honorable. Nor do I wish to see honors bestowed upon someone who devoted ten years to lying to the public, which includes me and you, about his violations of the rules of the game. Then when he finally came clean, he did it to make money selling a book. Pete and his ruined reputation may rot.
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Old 04-10-2014, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Olathe, KS
180 posts, read 214,836 times
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I don't have strong feelings regarding Rose and the Hall of Fame. I figure he probably should be there but the one omission that really riles me is Buck O'Neil. They held a special vote basically for the express purpose of letting him in and yet the vote failed, and nobody would say why they voted against him.
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Old 04-11-2014, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,474,678 times
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When I was 12 years old, the Hall of Fame was my link to baseball of the past, and without it, I'd have known little of the greats before my time. It should still fulfill that purpose for future generations, and the exclusion of Rose, Jackson, McGwire, et.al. fails to serve that goal. It became a political platform, rather than an historical asset, and for that reason, I repudiate its legitimacy and credibility.

By the way, the HoF has inducted a disproportionate number of Negro League players, in many cases absent any objective criteria. However, compare the stats of Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter, and tell me why the white man is in the Hall, but not the black man.

Last edited by jtur88; 04-11-2014 at 10:08 AM..
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Old 04-11-2014, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post

However, compare the stats of Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter, and tell me why the white man is in the Hall, but not the black man.
Is it your wish that we conclude that it is due to racism? If so, why do you not come out and state this rather than using the "You must fill in the blanks" approach you employ above?

Among the problems with such a conclusion is that counter examples abound. Compare the stats of Bobby Grich (70.9 career WAR, 7th highest by a secondbaseman)) or the stats of Allan Trammel (70.4 career WAR, 12th highest at shortstop) to Barry Larkin (70.2 career WAR, 13th highest among shortstops) and tell me why the black man is in the HoF while the white fellows are not. Is that racism as well?


And please...surprise us for once by not countering with a post where you try to deny that you had racism in mind at all.
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,474,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post

And please...surprise us for once by not countering with a post where you try to deny that you had racism in mind at all.

Of course I had racism in mind. It is acutely obvious that race plays a large part in HoF selection, hence the overwhelming number of Negro League inductees in proportion to the talent pool from which they were drawn. Racism is racism, regardless of which direction the thing is slanted.

By the way, it's been a long time since you posted anything that was surprising or unpredictable, too. I thought we were finished with that old poster who thought WAR was the only legitimate metric, to the exclusion of all others, and a player with a WAR 0.2 higher than another was, by that fact alone, indisputably superior.

Last edited by jtur88; 04-11-2014 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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jtur88

Quote:
Of course I had racism in mind. It is acutely obvious that race plays a large part in HoF selection, hence the overwhelming number of Negro League inductees in proportion to the talent pool from which they were drawn. Racism is racism, regardless of which direction the thing is slanted
Then if you believe that racism was at work in the matter of Sutter and Smith, provide your evidence. Is racism behind all election motivations when it comes to the Hall? Aren't any other factors in play? Isn't it possible that the voters decided that Sutter's career was worth more than Smith's on the basis of considerations other than racism? Don't assume, prove.

Quote:
By the way, it's been a long time since you posted anything that was surprising or unpredictable, too. I thought we were finished with that old poster who thought WAR was the only legitimate metric, to the exclusion of all others, and a player with a WAR 0.2 higher than another was, by that fact alone, indisputably superior
I do not know what the above is supposed to be suggesting. Again, if you have something to say, state it clearly. Am I supposed to be the "old poster" in the above? If so, that is nonsense, I have never argued that WAR was the only legitimate metric.
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,474,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
jtur88



Then if you believe that racism was at work in the matter of Sutter and Smith, provide your evidence. Is racism behind all election motivations when it comes to the Hall? Aren't any other factors in play? Isn't it possible that the voters decided that Sutter's career was worth more than Smith's on the basis of considerations other than racism? Don't assume, prove.


I do not know what the above is supposed to be suggesting. Again, if you have something to say, state it clearly. Am I supposed to be the "old poster" in the above? If so, that is nonsense, I have never argued that WAR was the only legitimate metric.
You brought up WAR to illustrate the superiority of two players over Larkin. If that's where you want to go, Smith's WAR was better than Sutrter's by a margin of 29.4 / 24.5, not 70.4 / 70.2. At least, I have your own metric, to demonstrate that Smith was significantly more deserving, while all you did was try to show that a selection was made between several essentially equal candidates, while ignoring any other factors that might have resulted in the choice.

You are saying the options were equal, and the black guy got it. I'm saying the options were unequal, and the white guy got it, although inferior by a large margin by YOUR OWN metric.

Which begs the question, why is the HoF commitee even considering a player whose career WAR is under 30? How many shortstops would that be? Bill Russell? John Valentin? Eddie Joost? All above 30. How about above Sutter's 24.5? Leo Cardenas and Solly Hemus?

Last edited by jtur88; 04-11-2014 at 11:49 AM..
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You brought up WAR to illustrate the superiority of two players over Larkin. If that's where you want to go, Smith's WAR was better than Sutrter's by a margin of 29.4 / 24.5, not 70.4 / 70.2. At least, I have your own metric, to demonstrate that Smith was significantly more deserving, while all you did was try to show that a selection was made between several essentially equal candidates, while ignoring any other factors that might have resulted in the choice.

You are saying the options were equal, and the black guy got it. I'm saying the options were unequal, and the white guy got it, although inferior by a large margin by YOUR OWN metric.

Which begs the question, why is the HoF commitee even considering a player whose career WAR is under 30? How many shortstops would that be?
Why is WAR suddenly "my" metric?

Know why I use WAR? Not because it is perfect or absent controversy, I use it because it happens to be the best thing that we have right now for reducing all that a player contributes to winning ballgames to a single numeral for comparative purposes. I use it because I have read about how the metric was constructed, what went into it, how it compares to other single numeral evaluation systems..and concluded that it is the closest thing that we have right now to something which provides us with what we want..a single numerical expression for comparative purposes.

And why do you scoff at WAR? Because you have not done what I have done. If you have, then present your arguments for what you believe is the superior system of measurement.


Now...on the subject you raised, I again request that you present your evidence that racism was a factor in enshrining Sutter while denying Smith. If you have no evidence, then such an assertion will remain nothing more than an assertion based on ...what? Your personal political agenda? Something you just like to assume because it fits with your world view?
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,474,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post

I again request that you present your evidence that racism was a factor in enshrining Sutter while denying Smith. If you have no evidence, then such an assertion will remain nothing more than an assertion based on ...what? Your personal political agenda? Something you just like to assume because it fits with your world view?
Geez, you really seem serious. You think I, a CD poster, have all the necessary proof to indict MLB and the HoF once and for all of institutional and systemic racism, and bring them crumbling to the ground whimpering in shame an ignominy. And absent such unassailable proof, I am obliged to keep my opinions to myself. Even the one opinion that I did utter, tantamount to "Well, it smells a bit racially motivated to me".

On the one hand, they are bending over backwards to honor black players, and I won't bore you with several conspicuous examples which are clearly out there for all to see. And at the same time, there are fewer African American players in MLB now than there were 30 years ado, many minor league and college teams have none at all, few are drafted, and there is at least one MLB team (and probably several more which I haven't explored) that hasn't had an African American regular in a decade.

Baseball is using black players to wave a flag of political correctness, while at the same time marginalizing the black players themselves. Blacks recognize this, even if you don't, and the number of black spectators at baseball games at any level is tiny, virtually zero, even in markets with large black populations. I'm sorry to disappoint you with an absence of statistical proof ot that, since spectators are often not requested to declare their race when they buy their tickets, but I've been to about 100 minor league games in 25 states, and have made it a point to look around for black spectators, and often I see none. Once I saw one, and it turned out to be the driver of the visiting team's bus. If you look at MLB crowd shots, even in cities like Detroit and St. Louis and Atlanta, it is rare to see a black face in the crowd. Try it next time you watch a game, I'm sure there are some black people in Oakland.

Last edited by jtur88; 04-11-2014 at 12:22 PM..
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Old 04-11-2014, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,379 posts, read 18,667,604 times
Reputation: 18807
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Geez, you really seem serious. You think I, a CD poster, have all the necessary proof to indict MLB and the HoF once and for all of institutional and systemic racism, and bring them crumbling to the ground whimpering in shame an ignominy. And absent such unassailable proof, I am obliged to keep my opinions to myself. Even the one opinion that I did utter, tantamount to "Well, it smells a bit racially motivated to me".
"Unassailable proof?" You offered no evidence whatsoever, you just threw it out there like "hey, we all know whats really going on."

Absent any evidence, then yeah, you should keep your ungrounded opinions to yourself.

At least I have my answer, you have no legitimate reason for assuming racism was at work. That failed to stop you from informing us that it must have been the reason.
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