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Old 08-26-2014, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,843 posts, read 23,222,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Let's look at the physical evidence.

Here is Mariano in 1995 when he was first called up:


And here he is two months later after the divine intervention.
lololololol
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Old 08-26-2014, 10:05 PM
 
Location: The Cathedral
208 posts, read 171,506 times
Reputation: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
There is plenty of evidence that PEDs increase muscle mass, increases durability and reduces recovery time between exertions. None of that evidence may be viewed as "comic book" despite your characterization as such.
Proper diet, exercise, rehab, and <gasp> cortico-steroids do all that dastardly stuff. The comic book notions arrive in a belief that anabolic steroids can and do somehow turn ordinary athletes into super-athletes. One look at the long list of MLB players known to have used steroids who simply remained the same marginal players they were when they started ought to establish the nonsense of such beliefs. Barry Bonds -- not steroids -- made Barry Bonds a great home-run hitter. Roger Clemens -- not steroids -- made Roger Clemens a great pitcher. Despite his home run this evening, Freddy Galvis -- not steroids -- made Freddy Galvis a generally inconsequential utility infielder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Rivera credits divine intervention and asks "How else can you explain it?" This thread is about that "how else."
Substituting one bit of baseless myth and superstition for another is not really to make any progress.
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Old 08-26-2014, 10:16 PM
 
Location: The Cathedral
208 posts, read 171,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
lololololol
Yup. The Lord works in mysterious ways alright. Although returning Bartolo Colon to say 185 pounds might prove to be beyond Him.
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Old 08-26-2014, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
37,029 posts, read 17,454,269 times
Reputation: 16833
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Bishop View Post
Barry Bonds -- not steroids -- made Barry Bonds a great home-run hitter. Roger Clemens -- not steroids -- made Roger Clemens a great pitcher. Despite his home run this evening, Freddy Galvis -- not steroids -- made Freddy Galvis a generally inconsequential utility infielder.


.
Steroids made great players greater players. Steroids extended the window of their greatness.

One is required to ignore mountains of statistics to take the dismissive stance you have taken above. My conclusions are evidence based and yours are vague assertions with no support. What happened in the steroid era could not have happened without steroids. The Bonds, McGwire and Sosa record breaking home run totals were only possible via steroids. Clemens still performing at a top level at the end of his career was made possible by steroids.

Why anyone remains in denial about this eludes me.
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Old 08-27-2014, 06:13 AM
 
Location: The Cathedral
208 posts, read 171,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Steroids made great players greater players. Steroids extended the window of their greatness.
The same could be said for the DH and Tommy John surgery. And as already noted, for proper diet and exercise and modern sports medicine in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
One is required to ignore mountains of statistics to take the dismissive stance you have taken above.
These mountains of yours fail to include even a tiny mole hill suggesting how anabolic steroids can improve actual performance. That's because there are no such links beyond those that would exist for getting a good night's sleep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
My conclusions are evidence based and yours are vague assertions with no support.
You can proclaim that all you like, but there is no evidence supporting a thesis that steroids make one a better hitter, pitcher, or fielder. You've begun backing away from that claim already in the first line above. Greatness extended, not created. There is still more empty baggage from the absurd anti-doping combine to offload over there where you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
What happened in the steroid era could not have happened without steroids. The Bonds, McGwire and Sosa record breaking home run totals were only possible via steroids. Clemens still performing at a top level at the end of his career was made possible by steroids.
This is more naked emotional rant, not evidence-based testimony. You've been unfairly bashing these players for so long that simple ego won't let you give it up now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Why anyone remains in denial about this eludes me.
Pretty much the only true statement in your post.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
37,029 posts, read 17,454,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Bishop View Post
The same could be said for the DH and Tommy John surgery. And as already noted, for proper diet and exercise and modern sports medicine in general.


These mountains of yours fail to include even a tiny mole hill suggesting how anabolic steroids can improve actual performance. That's because there are no such links beyond those that would exist for getting a good night's sleep.


You can proclaim that all you like, but there is no evidence supporting a thesis that steroids make one a better hitter, pitcher, or fielder. You've begun backing away from that claim already in the first line above. Greatness extended, not created. There is still more empty baggage from the absurd anti-doping combine to offload over there where you are.


This is more naked emotional rant, not evidence-based testimony. You've been unfairly bashing these players for so long that simple ego won't let you give it up now.


Pretty much the only true statement in your post.
You strike me as operating outside of normal reasoning so there seems no point in trying to persuade you of anything. Regardless of the mountains of evidence, you will respond as you do above.
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
37,029 posts, read 17,454,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Bishop View Post

This is more naked emotional rant, not evidence-based testimony. You've been unfairly bashing these players for so long that simple ego won't let you give it up now.

.
Since 1920 when the home run era in MLB began, 50 or more home runs in one season have been hit 43 times.

Between 1920 and 1989, 69 seasons, it was accomplished 17 times, or about once every 4 seasons.

Between 1990 and 2007, the steroid era, it was accomplished 25 times, or 1.5 times per season.

That is an increase of 600%.

Babe Ruth was the first man to top 60 home runs in a single season in 1927. 34 seasons passed until another player, Roger Maris, was able to do it in 1961.

Another 37 seasons passed and then in the space of just four years, 1998-2001, 60 or more home runs were hit six times.

Between 1927 and 1998, a span of 71 seasons, it happened twice. Then it happens six times in four seasons. And the three players responsible for the six times that 60 homers was topped, all have been caught and identified as steroid users.

Do you not understand that things like this, things which defy the odds by an immense margin, do not "just happen" nor are they the product of proper diet or Tommy John surgery. Proper diet and Tommy John surgery are things still available yet offense has been in steady decline since the 2007 season when MLB finally instituted a tough testing policy.

Since the crack down on steroids, 50 home runs has been topped twice, Jose Batista hit 54 in 2010 and Chris Davis last season hit 53, a return to the rate which prevailed before the steroid era, about once every four seasons.

Obviously there is no coincidence at work, obviously PEDs were responsible for the astonishing increase in home run production, and obviously the reason that we aren't getting these fantastic totals any longer is the crack down on PEDs use by MLB.

So, there is your data, try and characterize that as an "emotional rant."

Now, let us see your data which proves otherwise.
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Old 08-27-2014, 11:05 AM
 
Location: The Milky Way Galaxy
2,256 posts, read 5,907,071 times
Reputation: 1505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Let's look at the physical evidence.

Here is Mariano in 1995 when he was first called up:


And here he is two months later after the divine intervention.
I can't tell but are you serious with these pics?
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
37,029 posts, read 17,454,269 times
Reputation: 16833
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgt04 View Post
I can't tell but are you serious with these pics?
The lower picture is of Bartolo Colon, did you think I was seriously suggesting that Mariano Rivera morphed into Bartolo?
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Hometown of Jason Witten
5,985 posts, read 3,642,464 times
Reputation: 1914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
The lower picture is of Bartolo Colon, did you think I was seriously suggesting that Mariano Rivera morphed into Bartolo?
I know some people who look that way because of too many trips to Hibachi grill.
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