U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-05-2014, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,163 posts, read 12,817,106 times
Reputation: 2474

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by aardvarks View Post
Andy Pettite tested positive for steroids.

If he didn't fail a test you never would have believed he was dirty either

by the mid to late 90's it was everywhere in baseball including the Yankee dugout

there was no testing for it, and it was especially rampant in Dominican Players

take your blinders off
I didn't 100% trust Andy for 2 reasons.
#1- He's a Texas boy. Texas baseball players are pushed hard and at all costs.
#2- guilt by association. His best friend is/was a Red Sox legend.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-05-2014, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,163 posts, read 12,817,106 times
Reputation: 2474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Definition of an immortal during the PEDs era.....good player who didn't get caught.
I like the joke but can't fully agree. I do think that a huge majority used but some guys I really doubt ever touched the stuff. Mo was one of them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-08-2014, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
332 posts, read 230,808 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I got "The Closer" by Mariano Rivera from the library yesterday and I'm about half way through.

The good is that Rivera chose an excellent co-author, Wayne Cofffey, who does a wonderful job of translating Rivera's simply expressed thoughts into an admirably readable form. It keeps the writing from becoming embarrassing.

The bad is that Rivera is a relentless god squader. The book is dedicated to "My Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ" and Rivera marches out all of the typical Christian cliches, attributing everything good that has happened to him to some special divine interventions without putting any thought into who might be responsible for the bad. For example, as a kid he was in a dangerous situation when the family fishing boat sunk out from under Mariano and his father. They managed to make it to shore and Rivera of course claims that it was due to the Lord's guiding him. It does not seem to dawn on him that this same Lord failed to prevent the sinking of the boat in the first place.

The part of the book which really caught my attention because I had been previously unaware of this, was Rivera's description of getting called back up to the majors in 1995 after his first stretch with the team had proven to be a failure.

Now, here is the hard to believe thing. In the minors, and in his first call up to the big leagues, Rivera always exhibited extraordinary control, but his fastball topped out at 88-90 mph on all radar guns at all levels. Rivera then goes back down to Charlotte, has a stint on the DL with a sore shoulder, and when he returns he is suddenly throwing 95-96 mph, a speed he had never reached before.

How did this happen? It was The Lord according to Mariano.
"There is only one answer" he writes, "It is a gift from the Lord. I have known for a long time that He is using me for His own purposes, that He wants my pitching to help spread the good news about the gospel of Jesus." (pg. 73)

Well, you can elect to believe that...but of course there is the less miraculous possibility that perhaps Jesus directed Mariano to a special agent of the Lord who provided him with some PEDs.

Later in the book Rivera addresses the topic of PEDs use and is very righteous about it, explaining that the worst thing about them is that if you get caught, you go from being a hero in the eyes of your family and friends to being disgraced cheat. Mariano wouldn't let down The Lord that way, so that is why we are supposed to be confident that he never used.

I do not have any difficulty believing that a man who concludes that Jesus made him a super closer as a means of spreading the gospel, could deceive himself about the morality of cheating.

The other evidence, such as it is, would be that Rivera also manged to avoid the normal decline that comes with aging. He was as good as ever right up to the end. No doubt also the work of Jesus.

If all the god stuff was removed, it wouldn't be a bad book, Rivera's rise from Panamanian poverty to fame is an interesting story. The downside is that he has moved from me never suspecting him in any manner, to being highly suspicious about his honesty.
Yeah, I'll never get the god stuff. As someone who is not mentally ill, I read things like that or hear people talk about how "god gave me the strength" and I think "wow, that person is crazy". Then I realize that the crazy people are in the majority and I weep for my species. I was watching that special on Kent Brantly and it made me sick that he gave credit to "god" instead of the dozens of doctors and healthcare workers who risked their lives to treat him as well as the men (just down the road from me...) at Mapp Pharmaceuticals who made the drug that saved his life.

I think that many of these so-called "squeaky clean" players were cheaters just like the "squeaky clean" players of the past. Everyone loves Hank Aaron and Willie Mays, but both of them took greenies, something which earns a very long suspension today.

People assume that just because someone is on roids that they'll become some musclebound freak. That's simply not true. They only make you a musclebound freak if you hit the gym like McGwire did. Sure, a lot of the guys in the Mitchell report were big dudes, but there were plenty who were not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-08-2014, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
36,951 posts, read 17,431,639 times
Reputation: 16787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancet71 View Post
I like the joke but can't fully agree. I do think that a huge majority used but some guys I really doubt ever touched the stuff. Mo was one of them.
In 1998 when McGwire and Sosa were staging the assault on the Maris record, everything was peachy, wasn't it? No one suspected that what we were seeing would have been impossible without chemical enhancement.

After the Balco scandal and that humiliating Congressional hearing where we got that oh so sincere denial from Rafael Palmiero, Sammy suddenly forgot how to speak English, and McGwire kept taking his version of the Fifth, Alex Rodriguez was held out as the the man who was going to save the sport by breaking the Bonds record and restoring it to a non cheater. Then in 2009 we learned that Arod had been doping all along. We got that tearful confession from him which limited his admission to just his time in Texas( and to just the time when he had tested positive) and we have subsequently learned that he never stopped.

Then Andy Pettite got caught. Really? Andy Pettite? Pride of the Yankees Andy?

And we had those wonderful mid or late career revivals by Bartolo Colon and Melky Cabrera...great stories...until they got caught.

And Mr. Clean Ryan Braun.....

I think the lesson here is that no one is above suspicion.

And that is one of the things I hate the most about the entire sorry saga, that it has left us in that position of not being able to pronounce anyone clean with any certainty. That includes Mariano Rivera.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-09-2014, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,163 posts, read 12,817,106 times
Reputation: 2474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
In 1998 when McGwire and Sosa were staging the assault on the Maris record, everything was peachy, wasn't it? No one suspected that what we were seeing would have been impossible without chemical enhancement.

After the Balco scandal and that humiliating Congressional hearing where we got that oh so sincere denial from Rafael Palmiero, Sammy suddenly forgot how to speak English, and McGwire kept taking his version of the Fifth, Alex Rodriguez was held out as the the man who was going to save the sport by breaking the Bonds record and restoring it to a non cheater. Then in 2009 we learned that Arod had been doping all along. We got that tearful confession from him which limited his admission to just his time in Texas( and to just the time when he had tested positive) and we have subsequently learned that he never stopped.

Then Andy Pettite got caught. Really? Andy Pettite? Pride of the Yankees Andy?

And we had those wonderful mid or late career revivals by Bartolo Colon and Melky Cabrera...great stories...until they got caught.

And Mr. Clean Ryan Braun.....

I think the lesson here is that no one is above suspicion.

And that is one of the things I hate the most about the entire sorry saga, that it has left us in that position of not being able to pronounce anyone clean with any certainty. That includes Mariano Rivera.
I definitely agree that especially in the 80's to the present, a ton of people came up positive. When you see a guy like Brady Anderson belt 50 out of nowhere says it all. As far as Bartolo Colon goes, some of what happened to him is based on German science and stem cell rehab. It is a newer procedure and guys like Kobe Bryant (a few years ago) have attempted it as well within the last few years.
Unfortunately to try to salvage their reputation, everyone denies when they are caught. I still feel that Mariano and Jeter are both clean. Guys like them and Bernie Williams, and Paul O'Neill (for example) have a certain makeup that leads me to believe that they were honest. When the Arod scandal came out, I wasn't surprised.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-15-2014, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Hometown of Jason Witten
5,985 posts, read 3,640,122 times
Reputation: 1914
Saint Mariano (a term apparently intended to ridicule Rivera's Christian beliefs) has been gone less than a year and one of his records is already about to be broken. Dellin Betances' next strikeout will break Rivera's team record of 130 set in 1996 when Rivera was the set-up man for John Wetteland.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-15-2014, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
36,951 posts, read 17,431,639 times
Reputation: 16787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post
Saint Mariano (a term apparently intended to ridicule Rivera's Christian beliefs) has been gone less than a year and one of his records is already about to be broken. Dellin Betances' next strikeout will break Rivera's team record of 130 set in 1996 when Rivera was the set-up man for John Wetteland.
If the current environment is unchanged, we should expect to be seeing all kinds of strikeout records being broken. The top eleven performances by starters in the category of strikeouts per nine innings, all have happened since 1995. What has kept Nolan Ryan's single season k record intact has been the fact that no one gets 40 starts a year any longer, had Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez thrown as many innings per season as Ryan typically did, they would have been approaching 500 strikeouts a year.

For his career, Rivera struck out 8.2 batters per nine innings, his single season best was the above mentioned 1996 when his rate was 10.9.

Today 10.9 would situate Rivera in the 15th slot among all pitchers with at least 40 ip in 2014. Dellin Betance has been whiffing em at a 13.5 per nine pace, so all that is needed is a sufficient number of innings. Betance ranks 3rd in this category at the moment. Last season Aroldis Chapman checked in with an astonishing 17.6 per nine inning rate and is at 15.3 for his career.

And oh, yes, "Saint" Mariano was absolutely intended to be sarcastic. Read his book and you will understand why. Rivera isn't just religious, he is an extreme fundamentalist who believes that he was singled out by Jesus for every good thing that ever happened to him. He even explained the Yankee loss in the 2001 WS to Arizona as an intervention by god, designed to save the life of teammate Enrique Wilson. It seems that Wilson had two sets of travel plans and plane reservations, one if NY won and another if they lost. The plane on which he would have been flying had they won, crashed and killed everyone aboard. It does not dawn on Rivera that he is sketching a portrait of a capricious deity who plays favorites and does not care about saving the other passengers when a Yankee life was at stake.

Of course it was Rivera on the mound blowing the save in Game Seven of that Series, so it is unsurprising that Rivera concludes he lost not because he didn't come through in the clutch, it was because god had a more important agenda in mind.

The whole book reads like that, just one preposterous assertion about god after another.

So, yeah, I classify this work as highly deserving of ridicule.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2014, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Hometown of Jason Witten
5,985 posts, read 3,640,122 times
Reputation: 1914
I have not read the book and have no plans to do so. Does Rivera admit that his wild throw to second base probably cost them the game?

footnote: Rivera is not Roman Catholic and therefore does not qualify for sainthood.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2014, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
36,951 posts, read 17,431,639 times
Reputation: 16787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post
I have not read the book and have no plans to do so. Does Rivera admit that his wild throw to second base probably cost them the game?
That was Jesus, working through Mariano, to save Enrique Wilson. Rivera didn't supply the exact mechanics of how god caused the NY loss in '01, but that would certainly seem a probable point. Rivera wouldn't have thrown that ball away, but Jesus just may have redirected the ballistics.

Of course if it was divine intervention, it could have taken place at any point, Jesus could have been guiding Luis Gonzalez's little flare so that it dropped perfectly between the defenders.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Baseball
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top