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Seriously, you do not know the answer to this question?
Chemical enhancement was responsible for the record breaking performances. Chemical enhancement was responsible for Bonds and Clemens being able to perform even better in their late 30's than when in their primes.
The baseball writers who compose the HoF electorate have clearly made the decision that those players who are known to have cheated with PEDs, are not deserving of public honors, especially not MLB's highest honor.
Everyone is free to decide if they deserve to be honored or not, I side with the majority of the writers. I feel no obligation at all to bestow post career rewards to those who disrespected the game so badly. I especially feel no impulse to honor anyone who has stood up in public and lied to me about their cheating. Had they not given into the temptation to cheat, obviously Binds and Clemens would be first ballot Hall of Famers.
But they did give in and they must be held accountable for those decisions.
But you still never really answered the question. Those "chemically enhanced" performances as you like to call them, are still recognized by the MLB. They are "official" records of games. One "official" game is exactly equal to another. To me, if i open up the official MLB record book, these players have stats that are in tact and the wins of their teams were not taken away....so, i would recognize those hits, HRs and wins as legit.
As far as chemical enhancement being responsible, how come more people don't have 73 HRs or 300 wins? We know that during the "Era" plenty of players experimented with plenty of stuff and yet, there's still only one Bonds and one Clemens.
The problem with the steroid issue is there is no definitive proof of who cheated and who was clean.
Yes there is. In the case of Mark McGwire we have had his confession. In the case of Barry Bonds there is an abundance of evidence. In the case of Sammy Sosa, he was one of the 103 players who tested positive in the 2003 survey. In all three of those cases I would have no problem at all convicting them were I on the jury for their trials.
In the case of Clemens, it comes down to whether you wish to believe his personal trainer who has confessed to supplying and injecting Clemens. Having looked at the evidence and testimony, I grant the trainer far more credibility than I do Clemens' denials. However, I would agree that Clemens situation does lack "definitive" proof.
In the case of Alex Rodriguez we have a positive test from 2003 and a confession as to having used during his Rangers years. He then lied about further use but recently confessed to being guilty of PEDs use once more when he was caught in the Biogenesis investigation.
We have positive tests in the cases of Rafael Palmiero and Manny Ramirez. In the cases of Ryan Braun, Melky Cabrera, Andy Pettitt, and Bartolo Colon we have positive tests and confessions.
So, your statement that we lack definitive proof is not valid in all cases. We've got these guys dead to rights.
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I would bet some of the guys we consider clean were in fact users.
I suspect that you are correct with this. Recall that Arod was being looked up to as the "savior" of the game who was going to fix things by breaking the home run records of the cheaters. That lasted until 2009 and his positive test from 2003 was revealed.
One very illuminating fact reflects this. Since the crackdown on PEDS there has been an extreme change in the stats regarding the number of active players in the game over the age of 35, and an even more extreme change in the total WAR produced by players 35 and over. I regard this as proof of the anti aging characteristics of PEDs use, something that was already fairly apparent by the fact that starting at age 35, Barry Bonds had not just the best four years of his career, but the best four years anyone has ever had.
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Heck, there are probably a few already in Cooperstown.
I again suspect that you may be right with this. And what a mess it will be if someone already in, say Roberto Alomar, gets exposed as having been a PEDs user. What will we do then?
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You praised the 4 inductees this year but can you really be 100% sure they were clean?
None of them were caught, none of them were even suspected. I do not think we can base Hall voting on suspicion alone, otherwise we could induct no one from that era. And, no, I am not at all certain that all four were clean.
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You also say you have a hard time forgiving the PED boys but would have no problem with Piazza and Bagwell getting in when there is more than a hint of cheating associated with their names.
I an unaware of the "more than a hint" in the cases of those two. What are you referencing?
I an unaware of the "more than a hint" in the cases of those two. What are you referencing?
Like many players in the steroid era some players are assumed to have used whether or not they actually did. I kind of think they did but not based on anything other than rumors. I even heard them addressing Bagwell on one of the sports shows the other day and how he progressed from a skinny kid to a muscle bound homerun hitter suspected of using PEDs. Just Google his name and steroids and dozens of articles pop up. That's the problem, they all get lumped together regardless of facts.
Well, I guess they could build a steroid wing at Cooperstown The problem with the steroid issue is there is no definitive proof of who cheated and who was clean. I would bet some of the guys we consider clean were in fact users. I mean what if, heaven forbid, they found out the beloved Jeter used? Heck, there are probably a few already in Cooperstown. I'd have no problem removing the cheaters from all future ballots if it could be proven they used but how will we ever really know? Sure the obvious ones who bulked up like Hulk Hogan, i.e. Sammy Sosa, we can pretty much bet they were cheaters but what about guys who didn't?
What about a guy like Griffey who didn't bulk up but how do you know he was clean. We suspect he was 100% clean but can't prove it. Ricky Henderson? Never a suspicion but...
You praised the 4 inductees this year but can you really be 100% sure they were clean? You also say you have a hard time forgiving the PED boys but would have no problem with Piazza and Bagwell getting in when there is more than a hint of cheating associated with their names.
I do wonder if Clemens and Bonds will ever get in. Their numbers are so overwhelming that I think someday they will but another part of me thinks what's holding them back is they're both miserable SOBs which really shouldn't be a factor. I mean look at Ty Cobb. He was probably the most vile player who ever laced them up.
But it is a factor. If voters think youre a "bad guy" because you wouldn't give them an interview, they can keep you out.
Baseball is a statistics driven sport, if you have the stats, you get in. If you don't go by that and you start picking and choosing which guys were "honest" than its opens an entire different can of worms. To me, you look into the official record book, if the "game" recognizes the achievements of the player and the stats say yes to induction, you let him in. They want to keep certain people out for "tarnishing" the game, but the tarnishment of the hall is just as bad if you keep out the greatest of the great on technicalities.
Steroids did not improve eyesight, but they did indeed foster greater bat speed through greater strength, a massive advantage in that how far a struck ball travels depends on how forcefully it was struck. How forcefully it gets struck depends on how fast the the bat travels through the strike zone.
From 1927 through 1997, a period of seventy seasons, 60 home runs were reached twice. From 1998 through 2001, a period of four seasons, 60 home runs were topped (by a lot) six times by three different players.
All three of those players have been exposed as PEDs users. The rather obvious conclusion is that without PEDs, the '98-'01 bombardment could not have happened.
More than half of all the times a player has reached or topped 50 home runs in a season took place in the period 1991-2006. The rather obvious conclusion is that this would not have been possible without PEDs.
So, steroids indeed were magic, they clearly were effective in creating and advancing power hitting well beyond what would otherwise be possible.
And we cannot simply "put it behind us" because of things like this...the HoF voting. Steroid suspicion be marring that voting for years to come. The record book is in permanent disrepair.
That we are tired of the issue does not mean that we can pretend that it never happened or its effects were not manifest.
I disagree, and I am betting that there are no studies which back your position.
If you can provide real science that supports your conclusion, I am happy to read.
I disagree, and I am betting that there are no studies which back your position.
If you can provide real science that supports your conclusion, I am happy to read.
If you were really interested you would have "happily" already read any or all of the vast amount of material which is available. For example have you read:
"Game of Shadows: Barry Bonds, BALCO, and the Steroids Scandal that Rocked Professional Sports" ...by Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams? Those were the two reporters who broke the Balco Labs case and their book outlines the case against Bonds.
ESPN's Howard Bryant wrote a Bonds biography which includes a mountain of evidence supporting his PEDs use. Here is a link to an interview with Bryant which you may "happily" read. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5257852
I've read both of those books, have you?
I have read "The Rocket That Fell to Earth: Roger Clemens and the Rage for Baseball Immortality" by Jeff Pearlman which presents the case against Clemens. Will you be "happily" reading it now? Or "American Icon: The Fall of Roger Clemens and the Rise of Steroids in America's Pastime"
by Teri Thompson, Nathaniel Vinton, Michael O'Keeffe and Christian Red? I have read it.
Despite how poorly they were written, I have read both of Jose Canseco's books. Have you read either?
In addition I have read numerous newspaper, magazine and online articles about the subject. Every year I read both the Hardball Times Annual and the Baseball Prospectus Annual and over the years they have published several articles about the improbable feats accomplished by the PEDs crowds.
So, you lose your bet. There are studies galore on the subject and that you have not taken the time to read them does not mean that they do not exist.
Get back to me after you have "happily" read all of the works I referenced above. I look forward to your opinions once they become informed opinions.
If you were really interested you would have "happily" already read any or all of the vast amount of material which is available. For example have you read:
"Game of Shadows: Barry Bonds, BALCO, and the Steroids Scandal that Rocked Professional Sports" ...by Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams? Those were the two reporters who broke the Balco Labs case and their book outlines the case against Bonds.
ESPN's Howard Bryant wrote a Bonds biography which includes a mountain of evidence supporting his PEDs use. Here is a link to an interview with Bryant which you may "happily" read. Baseball, Steroids and Barry Bonds : NPR
I've read both of those books, have you?
I have read "The Rocket That Fell to Earth: Roger Clemens and the Rage for Baseball Immortality" by Jeff Pearlman which presents the case against Clemens. Will you be "happily" reading it now? Or "American Icon: The Fall of Roger Clemens and the Rise of Steroids in America's Pastime"
by Teri Thompson, Nathaniel Vinton, Michael O'Keeffe and Christian Red? I have read it.
Despite how poorly they were written, I have read both of Jose Canseco's books. Have you read either?
In addition I have read numerous newspaper, magazine and online articles about the subject. Every year I read both the Hardball Times Annual and the Baseball Prospectus Annual and over the years they have published several articles about the improbable feats accomplished by the PEDs crowds.
So, you lose your bet. There are studies galore on the subject and that you have not taken the time to read them does not mean that they do not exist.
Get back to me after you have "happily" read all of the works I referenced above. I look forward to your opinions once they become informed opinions.
Puuuuleeeeze ... Jose Canseco's books are science? That NPR interview is science?
I said scientific studies that support your opinion. Apparently you and I have different views of what constitutes science. Got any science that proves your point? I'm betting you dont.
Bonds, Clemens and Rose are responsible for tarnishing their careers, not the Hall of Fame nor the HoF voters. Those three all made really bad choices and have to live with the consequences.
There are HOF's who have bad reputation for human rights, such as Babe Ruth, today, he wouldn't get voted in because of what he stood for....should we take him out? Other players used amphetamines to stay awake for games. It doesn't just keep you up, it can give you a burst of power/intensity...shall we take those guys out, who admittedly used "greenies"? And since it was readily available, and testing wasn't very good, shall we just take out that whole time period and not allow any PED period players in? Because I guarantee that there are some in the HOF who used PED's but never got listed......People forget that Barry Bonds played clean for like 10 years, and he was an All Star and huge threat playing for the Pirates. Barry Bonds, started using PED's when it became obvious in order to get a huge contract, he had to hit more home runs......Barry Bonds was feared more so than Biggio.....Clemens compared to Smoltz...puhleeeeezzeeee get off the high horse, the HOF is loaded with dirty players already, it isn't the pristine hall that people think they have...lol
Correct me if i'm wrong but it's called the Hall of FAME, not hall of excellence, or hall of nice guys who can hit or pitch.
So add a wing on to the hall for all the famous who were juicers, gamblers, wife beaters. This way everybody who excelled in baseball gets in plus they get their own wing.
This will appease all the crybabies who favorite did not make it for one reason or another.
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The problem with the steroid issue is there is no definitive proof of who cheated and who was clean. I would bet some of the guys we consider clean were in fact users. I mean what if, heaven forbid, they found out the beloved Jeter used
? Heck, there are probably a few already in Cooperstown. I'd have no problem removing the cheaters from all future ballots if it could be proven they used but how will we ever really know? Sure the obvious ones who bulked up like Hulk Hogan, i.e. Sammy Sosa, we can pretty much bet they were cheaters but what about guys who didn't? 
