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Old 11-18-2017, 03:42 AM
 
534 posts, read 267,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maf763 View Post
Of course metrics are used, they always have been. But there are dozens that come into play, not one single one which was the basis of bachslunch's post. Even a single one that is more cumulative than others. I think considering the combination of the many different ways players can impact the game and the many different values we assign to those ways is preferable.

Take Orel Hershiser for example. Somebody might vote for him based on a period of time when he was one of the most dominant pitchers in the league (four top 5 Cy Young finishes in five years), his shutout innings streak, and his postseason success. Someone else might look at the productivity gap in the middle of his career and a number of pedestrian seasons and say he's out (which he is). But his career WAR is higher than Sandy Koufax, and maybe a dozen other Hall of Famers - I don't think that should give him an automatic pass into the hall.

Clearly, there are guys who are in who are less deserving than guys who are out, but I don't like the idea of using one mistake to justify another, especially when comparing players from different eras. One of the things that Baseball-Reference includes that I like is the Black Ink/Gray Ink stat, which compares a player's performance against the people he played against.

I wasn't aware of the Hall of Merit and agree it's a good idea. I wasn't being sarcastic when I suggested something similar.
Thanks for your reply.

For me, WAR is an especially good stat to use. It includes lots of aspects of a playerís career, for one thing. For example, for pitchers it factors in quality of defense behind them and how well the pitcher helped his own cause with the bat, while for position players it takes into account stolen base vs. caught stealing ratios and fielding issues. And for all players, it factors in park effects and makes period adjustments (normalizing for live ball vs. dead ball eras). In many ways, it avoids a lot of the limitations many stats have. But as you rightly pointed out, there are a few biases it has, such as career length (the Hershiser/Koufax example mentioned) and positions (the stat is harder on catchers for some odd reason). Iíve found controlling for these two issues takes these problems out of play. Compare within the same position and limit yourself to players who have fairly close numbers of plate appearances or innings pitched, and youíve really got something useful.

If isolating hitting, OPS+ works well; it takes slugging and on base percentage, adjusting for park effect and era, and setting things up to a baseline of 100 as league average. Its analog for pitchers is ERA+. I often include these when presenting a case like Morrisís above to show this specific aspect.

Regardless, one needs to know the limitations each stat has and account for it. The big problem as I see it is that some folks (including some HoF voters) donít do this, and are often taken too much by traditional stats that arenít especially useful, such as RBIs and pitcher wins.
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Old 11-20-2017, 05:55 AM
 
534 posts, read 267,673 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maf763 View Post
Clearly, there are guys who are in who are less deserving than guys who are out, but I don't like the idea of using one mistake to justify another, especially when comparing players from different eras.
I know you didn't bring up Ted Simmons, but for me there's a difference between

-someone who fits within a reasonable HoF range and

-being better than the worst person at your position in the HoF.

I definitely don't think every catcher better than Ray Schalk (a clear mistake) should be in, but Simmons strikes me as being within a reasonable HoF basis -- again, I believe that one needs to be against Gabby Hartnett, Mickey Cochrane, and Buck Ewing being enshrined to deny Simmons, which strikes me as too stringent. By WAR, he's right in that mix.

Going below Ewing is a different story. Whether folks like Thurman Munson, Gene Tenace, Bill Freehan, Wally Schang, and Jorge Posada should be in depends on how inclusive one thinks the Hall should be, whether one thinks catchers get short shrift in relation to other positions and compensation is in order, and other factors. I can see the argument either way on these players quite easily.
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Old 12-10-2017, 04:51 PM
 
534 posts, read 267,673 times
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Voting results just announced. They got one out of two right, at least. Jack Morris and Alan Trammell were elected to the HoF by this committee. Trammell is an excellent choice, Morris unfortunately not. Voting results, 12 needed for induction:

Jack Morris: 14
Alan Trammell: 13
Ted Simmons: 11
Marvin Miller: 7

Others got fewer votes. Simmons unfortunately missed out by one vote.
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Old 12-10-2017, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Tram is in. Sweet Lou still waits but today is a great day.
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Old 12-10-2017, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Marvin Miller....seven votes. Miller passed away a few years back and it is no longer possible to humiliate or honor him in a manner he could appreciate, but the voting committee continues to embarrass itself by refusing to enshrine this extraordinarily influential figure.

There are 16 members of the Modern Era Hall of Fame Committee. Hall of Fame members George Brett, Rod Carew, Bobby Cox, Dennis Eckersley, John Schuerholz, Don Sutton, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount.
That is nine guys who all got their incomes boosted many times over by Miller's actions. You would think that all nine would at least be appreciative enough to vote for Marvin. If they did, then he would need three more votes.


The others on the committee are major league executives Sandy Alderson , Paul Beeston , Bob Castellini , Bill DeWitt and David Glass. Let us speculate that all five are bitter over the way Miller continuously beat the owners and their executives, and are blackballing Marvin out of spite. Three votes are still needed.

The remaining three on the committee are journalists Bob Elliott, Steve Hirdt and Jayson Stark. They would have to have been incredibly unobservant journalists not to have noticed the impact Miller had on the game. Let us speculate that at least two of the three voted for Miller.

If my speculations are accurate, it is some of the players who are blackballing Miller and keeping him out....at least four of the nine not supporting him. If so, those guys are prime magnitude ingrates.
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:59 AM
 
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These committees always seem to have several administrative types in it. Not surprising that Miller hasn’t made it in, given this. There were six this time, which pretty much guaranteed he wouldn’t make it.
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:37 PM
Status: "It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Bel Air, California
19,913 posts, read 19,537,258 times
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glad to see Morris get in, the eighth Minnesota Twin and third Twin from a West-side, St Paul high school program to make it in.

Chick Gandil one time White Sox (and later pacifist and Indian Independence leader) also made his mark on baseball and hailed from St. Paul.

Last edited by Ghengis; 12-11-2017 at 02:03 PM..
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
33,764 posts, read 16,675,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghengis View Post

Chick Gandil one time White Sox (and later pacifist and Indian Independence leader) also made his mark on baseball and hailed from St. Paul.
I would hope the citizens of St. Paul aren't too proud of Gandil.
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:16 PM
 
15,892 posts, read 19,655,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Marvin Miller....seven votes. Miller passed away a few years back and it is no longer possible to humiliate or honor him in a manner he could appreciate, but the voting committee continues to embarrass itself by refusing to enshrine this extraordinarily influential figure.

There are 16 members of the Modern Era Hall of Fame Committee. Hall of Fame members George Brett, Rod Carew, Bobby Cox, Dennis Eckersley, John Schuerholz, Don Sutton, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount.
That is nine guys who all got their incomes boosted many times over by Miller's actions. You would think that all nine would at least be appreciative enough to vote for Marvin. If they did, then he would need three more votes.


The others on the committee are major league executives Sandy Alderson , Paul Beeston , Bob Castellini , Bill DeWitt and David Glass. Let us speculate that all five are bitter over the way Miller continuously beat the owners and their executives, and are blackballing Marvin out of spite. Three votes are still needed.

The remaining three on the committee are journalists Bob Elliott, Steve Hirdt and Jayson Stark. They would have to have been incredibly unobservant journalists not to have noticed the impact Miller had on the game. Let us speculate that at least two of the three voted for Miller.

If my speculations are accurate, it is some of the players who are blackballing Miller and keeping him out....at least four of the nine not supporting him. If so, those guys are prime magnitude ingrates.
In Mickey Mantle's HBO 1 hour documentary there was a 15 second seg with HOF Yankee Whitey Ford. A question was put to Whitey, asking what he is going to do now that he is retired. Whitey replied, "Go out and look for a job!"

In Ken Burns PBS documentary on Baseball, former Yankee Jim Bouton has several 20-25 second segs; here's one of them. " On opening day I signed, Dan Topping comes up to me in the clubhouse with the contract and says "here, it's the same as everyone elses (I think he's referring to a rookie MLB contract) Just sign it and let's go!"

And---"We didn't have anything like agents back then, then again I don't know of any agent wanting 10% of $6000.00."

It puzzles me that Marvin Miller has not gotten serious consideration. Two people that had a huge impact on the game--Marvin Miller and Curt Flood. IMO the ballplayers owe a huge debt of gratitude to these two men.
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Old 12-17-2017, 02:17 PM
 
534 posts, read 267,673 times
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I share the puzzlement over Marvin Miller’s continuing inability to be enshrined. My guess is that the Veterans voting committee usually contains a high percentage of baseball executives (this year, six of them) and that stacks the deck against Miller.
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