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Old 02-14-2024, 10:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggermatt15 View Post
So are we electing players purely based on statistics nowadays?

Unfortunately there is a marketing element involved for the league as a whole.

Getting hometown heroes into the HOF is a gesture of goodwill to fans from the league apparatus. I'm not saying it's right or fair, it's just sort of how it works.
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Old 02-15-2024, 10:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullCapacity View Post
Unfortunately there is a marketing element involved for the league as a whole.

Getting hometown heroes into the HOF is a gesture of goodwill to fans from the league apparatus. I'm not saying it's right or fair, it's just sort of how it works.

There's other things at play as well.. I mean.. I'm honestly rather shocked that Thurman Munson didn't get in.. Do I think he SHOULD be? No.. but.. If you die during your career and could be considered to be on a HoF path.. that usually gives you a bit of a leg up. Look back in the early years of the hall or the league for that matter.. There's not a small number of questionable people in there who died young.

Does he have a case? Yes.. But.. As many will say, I kinda put him in the Hall of Very Good. And, no doubt, Yankees fans have a vastly different opinion because he meant so much to the team. Should that count? Well.. You know.. Maybe.

Then you have players that just were in the wrong place. What would Dale Murphy's career have been like if he was on the 91-05 Braves vs the 73-90 Braves teams? Would we possibly be talking about him as a sure fire HoFer? One would think that his totals would have been higher on a better team. But, it's not a Hall of What If.



This argument could also apply to Curt Schilling. Lots of time on crappy Philly teams in the 90's. Which gave the illusion that he was only great in the playoffs. And, I do think that's a bit illusion. He certainly stepped up in the playoffs, but, it's unfair to say he was JUST a great playoff pitcher.

No question.. The type of person they are weighs heavily. It can put a borderline player in.. It can keep someone deserving based on stats out.
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Old 02-16-2024, 05:54 AM
 
33,313 posts, read 12,491,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18 View Post
There's other things at play as well.. I mean.. I'm honestly rather shocked that Thurman Munson didn't get in.. Do I think he SHOULD be? No.. but.. If you die during your career and could be considered to be on a HoF path.. that usually gives you a bit of a leg up. Look back in the early years of the hall or the league for that matter.. There's not a small number of questionable people in there who died young.

Does he have a case? Yes.. But.. As many will say, I kinda put him in the Hall of Very Good. And, no doubt, Yankees fans have a vastly different opinion because he meant so much to the team. Should that count? Well.. You know.. Maybe.

Then you have players that just were in the wrong place. What would Dale Murphy's career have been like if he was on the 91-05 Braves vs the 73-90 Braves teams? Would we possibly be talking about him as a sure fire HoFer? One would think that his totals would have been higher on a better team. But, it's not a Hall of What If.



This argument could also apply to Curt Schilling. Lots of time on crappy Philly teams in the 90's. Which gave the illusion that he was only great in the playoffs. And, I do think that's a bit illusion. He certainly stepped up in the playoffs, but, it's unfair to say he was JUST a great playoff pitcher.

No question.. The type of person they are weighs heavily. It can put a borderline player in.. It can keep someone deserving based on stats out.

It does now, but going way, way back......there are some in the hall who were pretty lacking in some ways as human beings.
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Old 02-16-2024, 07:25 PM
 
1,977 posts, read 967,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18 View Post
There's other things at play as well.. I mean.. I'm honestly rather shocked that Thurman Munson didn't get in.. Do I think he SHOULD be? No.. but.. If you die during your career and could be considered to be on a HoF path.. that usually gives you a bit of a leg up. Look back in the early years of the hall or the league for that matter.. There's not a small number of questionable people in there who died young.

Does he have a case? Yes.. But.. As many will say, I kinda put him in the Hall of Very Good. And, no doubt, Yankees fans have a vastly different opinion because he meant so much to the team. Should that count? Well.. You know.. Maybe.

Then you have players that just were in the wrong place. What would Dale Murphy's career have been like if he was on the 91-05 Braves vs the 73-90 Braves teams? Would we possibly be talking about him as a sure fire HoFer? One would think that his totals would have been higher on a better team. But, it's not a Hall of What If.



This argument could also apply to Curt Schilling. Lots of time on crappy Philly teams in the 90's. Which gave the illusion that he was only great in the playoffs. And, I do think that's a bit illusion. He certainly stepped up in the playoffs, but, it's unfair to say he was JUST a great playoff pitcher.

No question.. The type of person they are weighs heavily. It can put a borderline player in.. It can keep someone deserving based on stats out.
I agree. Roger Maris isn't even in the HOF, and for a long time, he had the single season home run record.
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Old 02-18-2024, 10:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggermatt15 View Post
I agree. Roger Maris isn't even in the HOF, and for a long time, he had the single season home run record.

Maris is a fascinating case that.. Probably applies to this discussion.

I don't see him being a HoF player. But he had a HoF-worthy accomplishment. Hi career, outside of a few years, and that one big accomplishment, really wasn't all that special.

So.. How to balance that? I think they wound up having a display on him in the hall for a long time, and perhaps still do? But, that gets you into a tough spot.. What about when you have someone whose feat is good enough for the HoF, but their overall career isn't?

I mean, this would never happen, but.. Cal Ripken.. What if he broke Gehrig's record, but.. Was just an average player? Of course, the argument here is.. An average player wouldn't get within sniffing distance of Gehrig's record, but..

if Nolan Ryan didn't have 7 No-no's.. He'd still be in. But, take away all those strikeouts(And add more losses and higher ERA and lower WAR that would likely have resulted).. There might be some argument. I haven't really looked at what the numbers might have been in that case. But once you add in the 7 no hitters.. Argument over.

Certainly, a big accomplishment can tip the scales on a borderline career as well.

Mark McGuire.. Were it not for the PEDs.. I think his 70 would have been enough to tip the scales in his favor. Probably not good enough on his career stats alone, but, that season with 70.. Might have gotten him in.



Conversely.. Sticking around too long. Andruw Jones would be the classic example here. He's something of a cursed player. If he had retired after 2006.. He'd be said to have had too short a career as an argument against. Though, he had great stats for those 10 years.

Then.. He stuck around another.. What? 6 years? Where he was a huge pile of suck. and, i'm probably being a touch unfair here.. That year with LA was awful. The years after.. Weren't.. Chris Davis years. But, in comparison to his first 10 years, they were just so bad.

I think he'll get in. If not next year, year after. Though, I probably should look at who's going to be on the ballot for the first time upcoming..

There's not many sure-fire first ballot HoFers coming up. Ichiro next year is a no brainer. Sabathia, Hamels, Braun, Posey.. Other names that.. Very well could get in that are becoming eligible over the next few years, but.. I wouldn't say any of those are sure fire first ballot guys.


If we go to the PED argument and.. In or out.. You know, I agree with the people who say PEDs don't help you determine what is a ball or a strike. PEDs don't help you hit the curve. But it's a bad example to set. If someone decides to not vote for them due to that.. Welp. That's their decision to make.
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Old 02-18-2024, 11:27 AM
 
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^Maris really should be in. He was a 7x All-Star, won 2 MVP awards, was the MLB POY, and hit 275 career home runs. The accolades are there.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...arisro01.shtml
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Old 02-19-2024, 08:40 AM
 
17,563 posts, read 15,226,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggermatt15 View Post
^Maris really should be in. He was a 7x All-Star, won 2 MVP awards, was the MLB POY, and hit 275 career home runs. The accolades are there.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...arisro01.shtml

If we're strictly looking at stats.. Look at his JAWS rating.. Puts him down in Jose Canseco and Kirk Gibson territory.. Which, seems about right. Gibson as well, had a solid career, not HoF, but solid.. And has that one accomplishment that.. Wasn't enough to push him over the top. Of course, talking about the home run in '88.

Good, but not HoF. The question, to me, is whether the '61 season is enough to push him over the top.. And.. Apparently not is the answer. and.. THAT is the part that I think there's an argument. The accomplishment.. Maybe big enough that it should have pushed him over the top.

I didn't realize how little Maris played during his career.. '58, '61 and '62 are the only seasons he played in most every game.
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Old 02-19-2024, 07:18 PM
 
1,584 posts, read 980,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sluggermatt15 View Post
^Maris really should be in. He was a 7x All-Star, won 2 MVP awards, was the MLB POY, and hit 275 career home runs. The accolades are there.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...arisro01.shtml

There was an excellent thread about Roger Maris and the HoF not that long ago:

https://www.city-data.com/forum/base...one-wrong.html

The short version is that he's not deserving of BBHoF enshrinement, but celebration of his 61 homer season clearly merits a spot in the museum wing itself. He had only two elite seasons, both of which saw him win the AL MVP award. He ranks 64th in BBRef WAR among right fielders, making him most similar to guys like Johnny Callison, Kirk Gibson, and Wally Moses, all solid players who aren't getting into the Hall without a ticket. The only inducted player remotely in his vicinity is Harold Baines, who is one of the worst players in the HoF and a mistake of colossal proportions. Very good ballplayer with a nice career, but not deserving of the HoF.

As far as All-Star Games, note well that there were two of them per season in 1959-1962, which was Maris's heyday. In fact, he went to both All Star Games in 1960, 1961, and 1962 as well as one in 1959. However, there are a couple significant problems with using ASGs as BBHoF determinants:

-they play the game mid-season, which means it's based on how well the player performed during the first few months of the season, not the whole season.

-for much of its history, starting lineups were determined by fan vote. IOW, it's a popularity contest rather than something in theory based on any kind of critical look at their accomplishment.
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Old 02-19-2024, 08:29 PM
 
1,584 posts, read 980,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMESMH View Post
It does now, but going way, way back......there are some in the hall who were pretty lacking in some ways as human beings.

The Character Clause has become a contentious issue for the BBHoF, in part because it's sometimes applied arbitrarily. There's an added problem here as well -- it wasn't codified until the Hall formalized its election rules, which occurred in 1945. So for nine years, there wasn't one, and that's when some of the more questionable "characters" got in, including:

-Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker, both implicated heavily in game fixing during 1919, but let off by Commissioner Landis for some reason. Link:

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...-athletics-mlb

-Cap Anson, who was instrumental in enforcing the color line.

https://insidesources.com/the-ugly-h...-of-cap-anson/

-Rogers Hornsby, possibly the most hated person in any clubhouse, plus a heavy gambler who may have bet on games.

https://seamheads.com/blog/2011/11/2...ornsby-part-i/

-Ed Delahanty, a notorious drinker and gambler who died after fighting with a train conductor and falling into Niagara Falls.

https://thisdayinbaseball.com/the-my...-ed-delahanty/

Babe Ruth was no saint either, though it's unlikely he did anything as problematic as the players above.

It's very questionable whether any of these players except Ruth would be elected today.
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Old 02-20-2024, 12:48 PM
 
17,563 posts, read 15,226,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachslunch View Post
It's very questionable whether any of these players except Ruth would be elected today.

I think it's lessened a bit so far as whether a player was.. Generally just an ass towards or frustrated with baseball writers.

We go back to Maris.. We know he had a very contentious relationship with baseball writers.. and that was at a time where.. That would keep you out of the HoF.

It seems, for the most part, back in the day. So long as you didn't tick off the baseball writers.. Anything else didn't really matter.

Now.. I think politics can even play a part. I'm not saying that Curt Schilling was kept out for that reason.. But it may be a small part of the overall reason. Everyone around him with similar stats is in.. Other than Clemens who is well ahead of Schilling on stats, but, has his own issues. Losing $75 million of taxpayer money would be another reason..

Honestly.. If he hadn't asked for his name to be removed in '22.. He very well could have made it in. I think he had 71% in his 9th year and went down to near 50% in his final.
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