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Old 08-31-2009, 05:04 PM
 
Location: CLEVELAND OHIO
433 posts, read 873,762 times
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It seems as though every time the Indians get a good team or a couple of stand out players they end up with another team going to the post season. I mean you trade back to back Cy Young winners and Victor Martinez. Cliff Lee is 5-1 since being traded and C.C. Sabathia is doing good as well.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
14,044 posts, read 27,145,312 times
Reputation: 7373
Fans in Cleveland are pretty upset about this development, especially because Mark Shapiro stated he wouldn't deal Cliff Lee unless there was an overwhelming offer on the table. The deal with the Phillies was hardly overwhelming, so the fans correctly feel they weren't being told the truth here.

The owner, Dolan, was about to lose $20 million this season. By getting rid of the Lee, Martinez, Pavano, Francisco and DeRosa contracts, he has lessened his losses to about $12 million. Unless this rebuild pays off in some better performance next season, I see the Indians near the bottom in attendance again.

I suspect the manager, Wedge, will be fired this offseason. The poor starts each year will likely be what gets him fired.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,164 posts, read 15,099,898 times
Reputation: 2534
You got it wrong....that would be the Pittsburgh Pirates.
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:17 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas
109 posts, read 318,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancet71 View Post
You got it wrong....that would be the Pittsburgh Pirates.
Exactly
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Old 09-01-2009, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
1,410 posts, read 3,962,263 times
Reputation: 389
Actually, you all have it wrong, at some time, every single small market team is going to look like a farm team to the fat wallet teams. Indians stick out because they traded back to back Cy Young award winners. But look at other small markets - the Pirates traded their entire team over the past year. Teams like Milw have no chance to resign CC. The Marlins have had a complete fire sale twice in their decade history. The Padres had to cut salary. The Rays. The Blue Jays. The A's through out the last few years. Just the way it will be when we have some parity between the highest and lowest payrolls.

G Man
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Old 09-01-2009, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,164 posts, read 15,099,898 times
Reputation: 2534
Quote:
Originally Posted by gman5431 View Post
Actually, you all have it wrong, at some time, every single small market team is going to look like a farm team to the fat wallet teams. Indians stick out because they traded back to back Cy Young award winners. But look at other small markets - the Pirates traded their entire team over the past year. Teams like Milw have no chance to resign CC. The Marlins have had a complete fire sale twice in their decade history. The Padres had to cut salary. The Rays. The Blue Jays. The A's through out the last few years. Just the way it will be when we have some parity between the highest and lowest payrolls.

G Man
Very good points but we are not wrong.Pitt will continue to be sellers for a long time as well as Clev unless they are ahead in the division while approaching the playoffs.Even teams like the Yankees weren't immune to selling off chunks like in the early 80's when a chunk of the team went to San Diego.Alot of teams just need owners that are willing to properly develop teams and then pay to keep them together.Everyone rips on the Yanks and Red Sox but a large majority of both their teams are homegrown players that have been there a while.Currently on the Yanks you have Cano, Jeter, Melky Cabrera, Posada, Petitte, Chamberlain, Robertson, Hughes, Aceves, Mariano Rivera, Phil Coke, and Gardner to name a few who were all players that came up through the organization.
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Old 09-01-2009, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
1,410 posts, read 3,962,263 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancet71 View Post
Very good points but we are not wrong.Pitt will continue to be sellers for a long time as well as Clev unless they are ahead in the division while approaching the playoffs.Even teams like the Yankees weren't immune to selling off chunks like in the early 80's when a chunk of the team went to San Diego.Alot of teams just need owners that are willing to properly develop teams and then pay to keep them together.Everyone rips on the Yanks and Red Sox but a large majority of both their teams are homegrown players that have been there a while.Currently on the Yanks you have Cano, Jeter, Melky Cabrera, Posada, Petitte, Chamberlain, Robertson, Hughes, Aceves, Mariano Rivera, Phil Coke, and Gardner to name a few who were all players that came up through the organization.
Thats what you dont get. Big market teams, like the Red Sox and Yankees can draft and develop players just like any other team. Where they get the advantage is because they can not only afford to keep the players that they develop and that succeed, but they can afford to sign the developed players from small market teams that leave as FAs or they acquire in trades (where the small market teams are "forced" to move them because they wont be able to afford to keep them in their pending FA and they dont want to lose them for nothing). Because of this, small market teams, the Pirates and Cleveland included will always serve as farm teams to the big market boys until we establish a fair salary range, with a cap and floor.

G Man
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,164 posts, read 15,099,898 times
Reputation: 2534
Quote:
Originally Posted by gman5431 View Post
Thats what you dont get. Big market teams, like the Red Sox and Yankees can draft and develop players just like any other team. Where they get the advantage is because they can not only afford to keep the players that they develop and that succeed, but they can afford to sign the developed players from small market teams that leave as FAs or they acquire in trades (where the small market teams are "forced" to move them because they wont be able to afford to keep them in their pending FA and they dont want to lose them for nothing). Because of this, small market teams, the Pirates and Cleveland included will always serve as farm teams to the big market boys until we establish a fair salary range, with a cap and floor.

G Man
What you don't understand is that it's alot more even then people realize. The major issue is greed.The smaller market teams get money from revenue sharing,but what they do what the money is ENTIRELY up to the organization.Owners like that of the Padres keep the money for themselves instead of putting it back into the team.Trust me, the smaller markets ARE NOT asking for a stiff cap on team salaries.Every time the vote comes up it gets shot down by a WIDE margin.In certain markets other sports are more popular but major citied in California and NY especially cater to most sports.If there was a stiff cap there wouldn't be revenue sharing because you wouldn't be allowed to exceed the cap and the smaller market teams don't like that.Now ask yourself this;why do teams like the Twins,Florida,and Colorado do so well?They do what the Yanks and Sox do but on a smaller scale.I like what the Yanks did with Sabathia and Burnett but they could have went for lesser arms and still be almost as successful.Teams like Pitt will always give up and instead of using the other small market teams as models they will continue dumping every year.
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Old 09-01-2009, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Asheville
7,554 posts, read 7,081,520 times
Reputation: 6939
the fact is everyone's right in this argument.

some teams definitely put the revenue sharing to good use while other owners put it in there pockets.

but looking at the Marlins and the Twins for a moment, teams that more often then not are in the playoff race right to the end. what are they doing that teams like the Pirates, Royals and others aren't?

1st off they draft very well, and to GMan's point the superstars they can't keep due to lack of payroll they usually get mega talent in return, think about this, when was the last time the Royals traded a budding superstar, how about the Pirates?

the 2nd point goes more to the Twins model, they draft pitchers that may not have the best stuff but that pound the strike zone and that's what they coach throughout the minors.

lets look at the results
Scott Baker 31 walks in 160 innings
Nick Blackburn 38 walks in 168 innings
Kevin Slowey 15 walks in 90 innings
Glen Perkins 23 walks in 96 innings
Francisco Liriano 58 walks in 127 innings

with the exception of Liriano all of them are stellar.

Having listened to several Cal Ripken interviews over the years he always talked of the Oriole way an how he was taught it everyday from the day he was drafted.

What's the Pirate way?
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
1,410 posts, read 3,962,263 times
Reputation: 389
Sure, the owners for the small market teams, some of them, are partially the blame. Not all teams are going to have owners who even care about winning. But also, to some extent, why should they spend more. If they have a payroll of 30 million and there are teams with payrolls of 200+ million, why should they spend an extra 20-30 million. Still have trouble competing. We know its an unfair playing field. Thats plain and simple. The teams with the higher payrolls make the playoffs more regularly, thats a fact.

The Royals traded Carlton Beltran, Johnny Damon and you can expect Zack Grienke to be next one day.

Pirates - McLouth, Bay recently and even more going back...

G Man
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