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Old 01-12-2011, 07:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
i have been on the fence with PP. i think IF he can win another title he will be 1st ballot. IMO i think they make things to easy to get in for some and to hard for others.

case in point should robert horry be in the HOF? he doesnt have the numbers but as i said before stats are not apples to apples, he is IMO BY FAR the greatest role player in the history of the game. he was just a pure outright winner. you cant argue with 7 rings on 3 different teams. he may never make it in but he should be, if some of the others can get in.
Horry won't make it and shouldn't be in.

A lot of those rings were as a 3pt specialist and he missed a crap load of those shots too.

Anybody here remember when he lost the Lakers a championship?
Arguably the worst 3pt shooting performance of the playoffs.

He also took a ton of 3pointers, wide-open and missed a lot of them...then he'd hit one and everyone would be "wow, that was a huge shot."


And now for the icy grip of numbers....here is specifically what I'm talking about. 1999-00 Playoffs where he got a ring with the Lakers.

Horry: Playoffs - 7.6ppg, 29% 3pt. range
Finals - 3/15 from 3 pt. range don't have the time to add up his ppg
etc. from the box scores.

Then the 2002-3 Playoffs where he shot 2/38 from the field and cost the Lakers the championship.

He racked up a lot of rings later in his career hanging around shooting wide-open 3pointers decently because Shaq or Duncan were drawing double and triple teams. Even then he had a lot of failure that people are glossing over.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Cook County
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I think we should also expand the conversation beyond first ballot, to just generally who's currently playing that will make it. Guys like Shaq, Duncan, Kobe are obvious...
Sounds like a good idea, I'll change the subject
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Cook County
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How much longer would Dwight Howard need to keep this up to get into this conversation? His career PERs are 17.7/12.7/2.1 (the last four seasons he is over 20ppg per)and he has made it to one NBA finals. Not to mention he is a freak in his health, he has played all 82 years every season of his career except for one in which he played 79. That in isolation does not go very far, but if we use that to project his future numbers, he should be playing at a high level for a long time. He just turned 25 too, so even knowing that big men can break down earlier than others, he should still have a lot of really dominant seasons in him.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Not sure about that. Without looking at their stats, I'd imagine they're in the same ballpark in that regard, and Ray was integral to a title winning team. Their careers otherwise are comparable, though I think Ray is a bit more versatile scorer. In his prime he was quite a bit more athletic than Reggie and equally as capable a slasher as he was a shooter. Now he's more or less a shooter coming off screens, but still very effective and why he's still so valuable at age 35.

100% agree with the rest of your post.
They are close. I only said weaker because Reggie has an additional all-nba selection and Allen at his age is not going to get nearly as high as Reggie on the career pts. list. I figure Allen will cap out around 25th or so while Reggie is #14ish.

The championship tag is hard to give a ton of credit to since Reggie never got to play with 2 other future HOFers. I have no doubt that he would have easily won a ring with Garnett and Pierce as well.
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
How much longer would Dwight Howard need to keep this up to get into this conversation? His career PERs are 17.7/12.7/2.1 (the last four seasons he is over 20ppg per)and he has made it to one NBA finals. Not to mention he is a freak in his health, he has played all 82 years every season of his career except for one in which he played 79. That in isolation does not go very far, but if we use that to project his future numbers, he should be playing at a high level for a long time. He just turned 25 too, so even knowing that big men can break down earlier than others, he should still have a lot of really dominant seasons in him.
I would think that even if he were hurt and played at much lower levels in the future he already has 2 defensive player of the year awards and a number of all-nba first team selections. An MVP this year and he could pretty much stop playing and get in IMO.

I don't think it's even remotely close if he has a couple more seasons like he has had.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
They are close. I only said weaker because Reggie has an additional all-nba selection and Allen at his age is not going to get nearly as high as Reggie on the career pts. list. I figure Allen will cap out around 25th or so while Reggie is #14ish.

The championship tag is hard to give a ton of credit to since Reggie never got to play with 2 other future HOFers. I have no doubt that he would have easily won a ring with Garnett and Pierce as well.
I doubt an extra all NBA selection will make a difference. When Reggie was playing, the prime 2 guards were Jordan, Drexler, Mitch Richmond, and himself. I think there's more competition during Ray's career as far as guards competing for those spots. You have to consider that Ray's prime paralleled Kobe's, Iverson's, Wade's, Carter's, and Tmacs. All of those guys were/are considered Ray's superior at the height of their respective careers.

Considering a championship can be a deciding factor between 2 players who are otherwise comparable, and considering Ray was a big part of that team despite other HOF talents, means in my opinion his HOF case isn't any weaker. No-one considers Magic any lesser because he played with Kareem and Worthy, so playing with Garnett and Pierce should not weigh against Allen. Having said that, matching them against one another in this regard is fruitless, because they're both getting in. It's not like they're competing head to head for getting into the hall.

Last edited by Roman77; 01-12-2011 at 08:49 AM..
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I would think that even if he were hurt and played at much lower levels in the future he already has 2 defensive player of the year awards and a number of all-nba first team selections. An MVP this year and he could pretty much stop playing and get in IMO.
Patrick Ewing was a 20/10 guy, a finals appearance, and an olympic gold medal or 2. And he's in the hall of fame. For all purposes, you could replace Ewing's name above with Howard's and the same description would apply. Plus the defensive player of the year awards and rebounding crowns. He's in.....
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Patrick Ewing was a 20/10 guy, a finals appearance, and an olympic gold medal or 2. And he's in the hall of fame. For all purposes, you could replace Ewing's name above with Howard's and the same description would apply. Plus the defensive player of the year awards and rebounding crowns. He's in.....
I agree. Just saying that Howard is probably already in (he doesn't have Ewings career totals) and if he isn't one more accolade would completley cement it even if he's taken out by a meteorite at the end of the season.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Earth
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I tend to look at guys who've managed a career's worth of excellence. If Howard maintains the same pace for the next 6-7 years he's a certain lock. He's been around for a while because he came out of high school, but really this guy isn't even at the halfway point of his career yet. What he will need to do, though, is refine his offensive game further. Even though he worked out with Hakeem last summer and I've seen improvement, his movements still lack a certain fluidity, and he enjoys a substantial physical advantage over other centers( sort of like prime Shaq). That is finite, so he will need to adjust his game for that inevitable physical decline.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:42 AM
 
52,016 posts, read 41,851,918 times
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I tend to look at guys who've managed a career's worth of excellence. If Howard maintains the same pace for the next 6-7 years he's a certain lock. He's been around for a while because he came out of high school, but really this guy isn't even at the halfway point of his career yet. What he will need to do, though, is refine his offensive game further. Even though he worked out with Hakeem last summer and I've seen improvement, his movements still lack a certain fluidity, and he enjoys a substantial physical advantage over other centers( sort of like prime Shaq). That is finite, so he will need to adjust his game for that inevitable physical decline.
Howard has proven to me that he is willing to work on his game extensively.
While I doubt he will ever be an elite scorer he is already IMO a top 5 player in the league. So, at age 25 I guess we will see how far he develops but it won't be limited by effort.

I don't ever see him going offensively full beast on people like Shaq or Dream in their prime. Looking up the Horry info I saw the numbers from the Indy-LA thread and gee...when Shaq is dropping 40-24 on you and shooting >60% from the field....it's over unless the other guys are launching bricks and otherwise playing like crap.
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