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Old 01-12-2011, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post

you guys can take the easy way and stick with paul pierce and kobe, you know they are the popular picks right.
Has nothing to do with the easy way. It's the common sense approach of looking at past precedence for who gets into the hall, and looking at who would fit the bill today. But no, just for Rigas let's alter the criteria so every Joe Blow role player who hits a few clutch shots can get in. Let's dismiss the fact that Horry's rings are merely an advantage of playing with 4 of the best players ever. Let's dismiss the fact that those teams would have won the rings regardless of Robert Horry. Let's dismiss the fact that for 5 of those rings, he was a bench-warmer and that for the other 2 he was an, at best,decent starter. Let's dismiss the fact that other than hitting a few shots in the clutch, he did nothing to carry a team over the stretch of a game, week, month, or season.

Let's dismiss it all, for Rigas.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:11 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,207,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
1) Ok, stop it right there. Jordans numbers are better than Lebrons. Jordans career ppg's including the seasons where he was pushing 40years old is 30.1 and that exceeds Lebrons best season ever . Shooting percentage is higher too as are steals and FT% is 10pts higher for Jordan. Lebron edges him a bit on rebounds and assists. If you want to shave off Jordan's older year or compare peak years it turns into a slaughter.

2) No one is questioning that Horry wasn't at times in his career a good starter or excellent 6th man. But being the 3rd, 4th or 5th best player on a string of championship teams isn't enough to get in the HOF. Otherwise when do we plan on enshrining guys like Derek Fisher too?
career numbers for jordan,
30.1, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, on 49.7% shooting 32.7% from 3pt

lebrons numbers to date
28, 7, 7, on 47.5% shooting, 33.1% from 3pt.

and again if another 7 ring winner can get in as a 6th man his whole career with boston behind guys like bill russel, bob cousey, kc jones, john havlicek.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:19 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,207,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Has nothing to do with the easy way. It's the common sense approach of looking at past precedence for who gets into the hall, and looking at who would fit the bill today. But no, just for Rigas let's alter the criteria so every Joe Blow role player who hits a few clutch shots can get in. Let's dismiss the fact that Horry's rings are merely an advantage of playing with 4 of the best players ever. Let's dismiss the fact that those teams would have won the rings regardless of Robert Horry. Let's dismiss the fact that for 5 of those rings, he was a bench-warmer and that for the other 2 he was an, at best,decent starter. Let's dismiss the fact that other than hitting a few shots in the clutch, he did nothing to carry a team over the stretch of a game, week, month, or season.

Let's dismiss it all, for Rigas.
so do we dismiss the rings phil has because he coached 3 of the greatest of all time?

or how about pierce, ray allen, and kevin garnett? none of those guys could do anything but put up numbers on a bad team until they all get together then they win a lot of regular season games and to date 1 ring. or maybe take bruce bowens rings away because he played with tim, manu, tony, and david robinson, and steven jackson to boot.

discounting a player with more rings then 99% of the nba because he wasnt the star is like saying a ford gt isnt as good as a koenigseg because it doesnt drive as fast. the gt has still won more races.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:31 PM
 
Location: spring tx
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apparently i am not the only one who things horry should get in
adande
Quote:
OK, then, what is Robert Horry? The longer he plays, the harder it is to answer that question.

Is he the guy who hits all the clutch shots? Is he a cheap-shot artist? Does he belong in the Hall of Fame?

We'll address those soon enough (short answers: yes, no, yes), but if you want the easiest way to describe Horry, consider this label: cowboy.
horry in his own words
Sports Radio Interviews Blog Archive Robert Horry Thinks He Belongs in the Hall of Fame, The Debate Begins
Quote:
Does he think he’ll go to the Hall of Fame?

“To be honest with you I don’t think so. I think I should be because I’ve done a lot of great things in basketball. A lot of people look at the scoring aspect of basketball, they don’t look at the other things like defense, winning; I think I’m one of the most winningest players in this game. I’m a specialist in that I go out and make a team better; I was a specialist in playing D, I was a specialist in getting the job done and being a great teammate. You look at all of the guys I’ve played with and you go down in the 4th quarter and ask who do you want in the 4th quarter, they want me.”
again, while i am not the only one who thinks so, there are people who think not. in the end nobody is changing minds so its moot.

you guys stick to your stats and ignore "the other things" and i will continue to look at them all.

so whos next? i know SAM CASSELL!
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
so do we dismiss the rings phil has because he coached 3 of the greatest of all time?

or how about pierce, ray allen, and kevin garnett? none of those guys could do anything but put up numbers on a bad team until they all get together then they win a lot of regular season games and to date 1 ring. or maybe take bruce bowens rings away because he played with tim, manu, tony, and david robinson, and steven jackson to boot.

discounting a player with more rings then 99% of the nba because he wasnt the star is like saying a ford gt isnt as good as a koenigseg because it doesnt drive as fast. the gt has still won more races.
Classic strawman argument. But just to humor you, Phil is both underrated and overrated as a coach. Underrated in that it takes a particular talent to blend those super egos together. Overrated in that he caught those guys at a time when they were coming into their primes, and I suspect they would have won rings if you replaced Phil with a Larry Brown/Pat Riley/ Gregg Poppovich/ Jerry Sloan. In fact, the brains behind the triangle was Tex Winters. What you're not getting is that Horry isn't what you'd call an indispensible component. You could replace him with any number of decent role players. Now, I challenge you to replace Shaq, Kobe, or Jordan and say those teams would achieve the same results.

Pierce, Allen and Garnett are multiple-time all NBA performer sand considered among the best at their positions for the length of their careers, 12 years ago and TODAY. Their careers were hall of fame level prior to winning a title, doing so was just icing on the cake. There's quite a few players in the hall of fame who didn't win rings, but put up big numbers on good teams. Ever heard of Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, and soon to be inductee Reggie Miller? Dominique Wilkins?

No-one's talking about taking Bruce Bowen's ring away. But while a significant part of that Spurs team, he's not a hall of fame talent. He's not someone who can carry a team, he's a specialist in the same manner Horry was. Horry was replaceable, when you can wrap your head around that maybe we'll get somewhere but otherwise, I'm bored of this discussion with you.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,884,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
career numbers for jordan,
30.1, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, on 49.7% shooting 32.7% from 3pt

lebrons numbers to date
28, 7, 7, on 47.5% shooting, 33.1% from 3pt.

and again if another 7 ring winner can get in as a 6th man his whole career with boston behind guys like bill russel, bob cousey, kc jones, john havlicek.
Why did you post those numbers? They fly in the face of YOUR comment that Lebron's numbers are better. Who has higher steals, higher free throw percentage? Lebron is 6"8 250, Jordan is 6"6 210 and averages a whooping one more rebound per game. Is there a point here somewhere?

The thing I can give Horry the most credit for, is that he chose his teams wisely. Other than being drafted to Houston, in the other cases he was smart enough to attach himself to the team most likely to win titles. "Geez, I want to win titles, should I pick the Clippers or the Lakers?" Yeah he was an asset to those teams, but irreplaceable? Hardly.

Last edited by Roman77; 01-12-2011 at 01:49 PM..
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,884,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
apparently i am not the only one who things horry should get in
adande


horry in his own words
Sports Radio Interviews Blog Archive Robert Horry Thinks He Belongs in the Hall of Fame, The Debate Begins


again, while i am not the only one who thinks so, there are people who think not. in the end nobody is changing minds so its moot.

you guys stick to your stats and ignore "the other things" and i will continue to look at them all.

so whos next? i know SAM CASSELL!
So Robert Horry commented on HIS OWN hall of fame credentials, and you use this as proof of what, exactly?
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:49 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,207,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
There's quite a few players in the hall of fame who didn't win rings, but put up big numbers on good teams. Ever heard of Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing, and soon to be inductee Reggie Miller? Dominique Wilkins?
ok so you say reggie is a HOF and a 1st ballot at that, yet you argue that he was nothing but a 3 point shooter who is about to be passed by ray allen. how does he get in? has he done more then horry? i say no. he was a very good shooter, but he was not a winner. he scored more points but thats it. he had very little defense, wasnt a good rebounder or passer, he hit some big shots but last i checked so did horry. and horrys career 3 point % is not much below reggies, he just didnt shoot as many, about 5%.

bottom line, if reggie miller is a 1st ballot, horry should be in.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:55 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,207,205 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
So Robert Horry commented on HIS OWN hall of fame credentials, and you use this as proof of what, exactly?
you apparently skipped the one from adande or you are trying to pick and choose.

and horry makes good points as to why he WILL NOT get into the HOF, but then you must have skipped reading it as well.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:00 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,207,205 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Why did you post those numbers? They fly in the face of YOUR comment that Lebron's numbers are better. Who has higher steals, higher free throw percentage? Lebron is 6"8 250, Jordan is 6"6 210 and averages a whooping one more rebound per game. Is there a point here somewhere?

The thing I can give Horry the most credit for, is that he chose his teams wisely. Other than being drafted to Houston, in the other cases he was smart enough to attach himself to the team most likely to win titles. "Geez, I want to win titles, should I pick the Clippers or the Lakers?" Yeah he was an asset to those teams, but irreplaceable? Hardly.
the whole point (again pick and choose away) is to your point that stats mater, lebron and jordan have almost identical numbers, and better then kobe, BUT would YOU say that lebron was better? you have already said no he isnt so you proved my point that stats are not the end all of a game or the HOF.

thanks for that.

horry won 2 rings in houston as a draftee, and not a role player but i vital part of the team. surely you could replace him with another guy like say parish, and the team would most likely still win. nobody is trying to say he is a 50 greatest of all time, but the HOF isnt about the greatest ever, it is about those who had prolific careers in the sport of basketball, and nobody can argue that horrys career was not a prolific career in the history of basketball.
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