U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-13-2011, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,372,551 times
Reputation: 3070

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
Jesus spare me about how great Phil Jackson is as a coach. Have that guy coach Milwaulkee or Toronto and establish a winning record before we start talking about his great coaching. The guy imo is pure hype, just like that Zen/Buddha bull**** that he pushes. Look if the guy really believed all that, then he wouldn't be a bball coach. If he was a true believer, he wouldn't care about winning or losing games, he wouldn't care about money, he wouldn't care about sports, because in the bigger scheme of things, he would know that it was all meaningless. The guy is just as craven and materialistic as anyone else in the game. It's a testament to just how overwhelming the PR/media management business is in this country that we can turn PJ into some kind of icon. Have him go to Sacramento and see what the hell he can do there before we start talking just how great a coach he has been...
It's not just the media, the great players that you are giving all the credit for give Phil a ton of love and credit. How do you reconcile that with your willingness to write him off as "pure hype?" MJ, while a great players is kind of a prick irl and if he wanted to blast phil, or take any credit away from him he would have. He didn't because he doesn't believe that is the case.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-13-2011, 04:54 PM
 
920 posts, read 1,533,855 times
Reputation: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
It's not just the media, the great players that you are giving all the credit for give Phil a ton of love and credit. How do you reconcile that with your willingness to write him off as "pure hype?" MJ, while a great players is kind of a prick irl and if he wanted to blast phil, or take any credit away from him he would have. He didn't because he doesn't believe that is the case.
You seem not to get it. You pointed out that he had great players. The point was that if he has to be considered a great coach, he had to do it WITHOUT great players, in small markets such as Milwaulkee/Sacramento, and that if he actually believed in the Zen/Buddha crap, then he would have conducted his life altogether differently than he has. Try to see if you can stay on point next time....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-13-2011, 04:57 PM
 
920 posts, read 1,533,855 times
Reputation: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
I am not exactly Bill Simmons biggest fan, but this is a lengthy piece on Phil that I enjoyed

Bill Simmons: Phil Jackson and his aching body no longer need the NBA grind - ESPN

Not that I agreed with everything he said but still a good read.

For the haters out there saying Phil wasn't that great I would suggest at least thinking about this line of thought. A true measure of a coach in the professional level is: to not mess things up and maximizing the value of your players. No one is saying he made MJ, MJ or made Kobe, Kobe, Shaq, Shaq etc. But he sure as hell didn't F up his oppurtunities.
You must be kidding. If not, then you don't seem to understand what PJ's detractors have been saying all these years, and you just confirmed their point, that being all he had to do was get outta their way and not to screw things up. And here I thought great coaching was to take players and make them better than what they were before you became their coach. Get something straight, no one thinks anyone is any good at anything if all they have to do is not to screw things up...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-13-2011, 09:13 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,211,960 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
You must be kidding. If not, then you don't seem to understand what PJ's detractors have been saying all these years, and you just confirmed their point, that being all he had to do was get outta their way and not to screw things up. And here I thought great coaching was to take players and make them better than what they were before you became their coach. Get something straight, no one thinks anyone is any good at anything if all they have to do is not to screw things up...
i have to agree, a great isnt worried about "not screwing up the greatest players" but taking marginal talent and expanding on it, making good talent great. phil jackson never made a single marginal player good, never made a good player great, he made his living off MJ, kobe and shaq and pau. he didnt make a single player better. if he made players better then luke walton would be worth his ridiculous contract.

some coaches coach to their talent, some bring the talent to their coaching, and some try to get situations where things match equally from the start. phil jackson never coached a team with lesser talent, he simply went to the optimal situation. he went ot a budding team with great talent (anyone could see from the outside) and road the coat tails. he came in on MJ, he came in on the shaq/kobe era out of the blue? hell no he knew what he was getting into before hand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-13-2011, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,372,551 times
Reputation: 3070
Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
You must be kidding. If not, then you don't seem to understand what PJ's detractors have been saying all these years, and you just confirmed their point, that being all he had to do was get outta their way and not to screw things up. And here I thought great coaching was to take players and make them better than what they were before you became their coach. Get something straight, no one thinks anyone is any good at anything if all they have to do is not to screw things up...
I'm not kidding, but I clearly have a different criteria for what makes a great coach than you do. Besides, it's pretty clear Phil made players better (which is your above criteria). Add up the rings these players had before PJ: MJ, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe. That answer is 0. Coaches value is not seen in a single play, or even a single game - it's about the long term.

Can you name me a single coach in the last 30 years of the NBA that won a title with mediocre players? The only team I can think of is the 04 pistons w/larry brown. He deserves a ton of credit for that but that year stands as an outlier in so many different ways.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-14-2011, 09:22 AM
 
920 posts, read 1,533,855 times
Reputation: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
I'm not kidding, but I clearly have a different criteria for what makes a great coach than you do. Besides, it's pretty clear Phil made players better (which is your above criteria). Add up the rings these players had before PJ: MJ, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe. That answer is 0. Coaches value is not seen in a single play, or even a single game - it's about the long term.

Can you name me a single coach in the last 30 years of the NBA that won a title with mediocre players? The only team I can think of is the 04 pistons w/larry brown. He deserves a ton of credit for that but that year stands as an outlier in so many different ways.

You don't seem to get it at all. Based on what you're posting, PLAYERS make your coaches, not the other way around. Wilt was the greatest center of all time, but until he got to Philly and had guys like Luke Jackson, Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, he didn't win a ring, and when he was in L.A. he won with Jerry West and Happy Hairston. Now tell me who those coaches were. And since you seem fixated on the long term, name one team which has had a ten year run as champions? Moreover as was posted by another writer, great coaches make players better, that is what a coach is supposed to do. Name one player that PJ has made better. Why hasn't he made Luke Walton a great player in order to justify his salary? Why do you JUST focus on the marquee players? Show us how he made ALL his players better, not just the HOFer's?

As rigas has pointed out so well, Phil Jackson went to the most optimal situation possible, an organization with plenty of money and great players. He has NEVER gone to job where he didn't have both. That isn't what a great coach does, he goes to a place where they have none of that and still finds a way to win and play high caliber bball. Now you name a situation where PJ ever did that....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-14-2011, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,372,551 times
Reputation: 3070
Quote:
Originally Posted by loloroj View Post
You don't seem to get it at all. Based on what you're posting, PLAYERS make your coaches, not the other way around. Wilt was the greatest center of all time, but until he got to Philly and had guys like Luke Jackson, Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, he didn't win a ring, and when he was in L.A. he won with Jerry West and Happy Hairston. Now tell me who those coaches were. And since you seem fixated on the long term, name one team which has had a ten year run as champions? Moreover as was posted by another writer, great coaches make players better, that is what a coach is supposed to do. Name one player that PJ has made better. Why hasn't he made Luke Walton a great player in order to justify his salary? Why do you JUST focus on the marquee players? Show us how he made ALL his players better, not just the HOFer's?
Get what? Your opinion or the fact that you just get hot and bothered if someone disagrees with you? You realize that in situations like this there is no right or wrong answer and everybody can have their opinion right?

Invoking the name of players 45+ years ago doesn't do much for me as the NBA, perhaps more than any other team sport, has changed drastically in that time. It would be like me using an example of "leave it to beaver" to illustrate how wholesome TV is now.

Again the players that played for Phil disagree with you, and I'll take their word over yours.

I never said Phil was the GOAT coach, I took issue with you dismissing his ability entirely.

And please name the coach that would turn Luke Walton into a great player?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-14-2011, 09:37 AM
JL
 
7,355 posts, read 11,905,335 times
Reputation: 7198
I'd like to see Phil coach one of these 3 teams. I thought these teams were alot better than their records and way they played. Indiana, Atlanta, and Sacramento. Especially the Kings. They have two upcoming young stars in Evans and Cousins. I would like to see Phil take this team to the next level.

One thing about Phil that i don't like is when he makes snide comments about other coaches or players. All this gamesman ship and jokes are a bit classless, especially coming from a Zen Buddhist. I don't think you will see many Zen practitioners doing this in real life. Earlier in the year, he made comments that questioned about the job of the Heat's coach, possibly getting him fired when they were not doing well. He also joked about Rudy T not deserving two titles as coach of the Houston Rockets. There are certain things you just don't joke about.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-14-2011, 10:32 AM
 
920 posts, read 1,533,855 times
Reputation: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
Get what? Your opinion or the fact that you just get hot and bothered if someone disagrees with you? You realize that in situations like this there is no right or wrong answer and everybody can have their opinion right?

Invoking the name of players 45+ years ago doesn't do much for me as the NBA, perhaps more than any other team sport, has changed drastically in that time. It would be like me using an example of "leave it to beaver" to illustrate how wholesome TV is now.

Again the players that played for Phil disagree with you, and I'll take their word over yours.

I never said Phil was the GOAT coach, I took issue with you dismissing his ability entirely.

And please name the coach that would turn Luke Walton into a great player?
The one who is getting hot and bothered is you, not me. IMO you're flat wrong. And what does the fact that something took place some time ago take away from it relevance. Only if a guy like you can't address it which seems to be the case.

And so what if players haven't come out and said anything about their coaches? Did Wilt or Kareem attribute their championships to their great coaches, or their teammates? Further more, Kobe wanted Shaq out because he couldn't abide the guy, but yet in public you never heard him say anything about how much he hated him. It was the players themselves who basically dictated who would play and how the team would be formed, not Phil boy, which tends to undermine your point as to how important coaches are vis a vis players.

And if you claim that no coach could make Luke Walton a better player, then it also undercuts your claim regarding how important a coach is to a team. If they can't do their job which is to make players better then they aren't very good coaches, because that is part of the job description. And I asked you to name ANY player that PJ has made better. I'm still waiting, calm and coolly.....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-14-2011, 10:38 AM
 
920 posts, read 1,533,855 times
Reputation: 955
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL View Post
I'd like to see Phil coach one of these 3 teams. I thought these teams were alot better than their records and way they played. Indiana, Atlanta, and Sacramento. Especially the Kings. They have two upcoming young stars in Evans and Cousins. I would like to see Phil take this team to the next level.

One thing about Phil that i don't like is when he makes snide comments about other coaches or players. All this gamesman ship and jokes are a bit classless, especially coming from a Zen Buddhist. I don't think you will see many Zen practitioners doing this in real life. Earlier in the year, he made comments that questioned about the job of the Heat's coach, possibly getting him fired when they were not doing well. He also joked about Rudy T not deserving two titles as coach of the Houston Rockets. There are certain things you just don't joke about.
Having lived in L.A., it was always pretty well known that Phil was as craven and materialistic as anyone else in the league. As I wrote earlier, if you were what Phil was made out to be, you wouldn't care a thing about idiotic things re: wining/losing bball games, you could care less about money, you wouldn't be a coach because you would know that in the big scheme of life, you would already know how meaningless it all was. He's driven by all the same things as any other "non enlightened" coach. The thing is that in parts of SoCal that bull**** plays well...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top