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Old 05-30-2011, 08:44 PM
 
10,963 posts, read 8,057,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
LOL.... now I know you're trolling. Lebron James is NOT a better, more consistent shooter than Jordan in his prime. Defensively, Jordan is a better ball thief, man to man defender, and no worse as a shotblocker.

Advantage Jordan.
Sorry I have to give the edge to Lebron in terms of shoot blocking.
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Old 05-30-2011, 10:28 PM
 
199 posts, read 426,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
And having an inhuman ability to strip the ball is a valuable defensive asset, right? You didn't actually argue against Jordan being a bad defender here. Jordan was very adept at playing the passing lanes, and Lebron is NOT a great man to man defender. He's not bad, but Lebron doesn't have the lateral quickness that Jordan had to play in your shorts defense. How can you credit the guy with being amazing at stripping the ball, and claim he's overrated??!! Stealing the ball is a MAJOR defensive ability, as big a defensive ability on the perimeter as a great shotblocker would be in the lane. Particularly if you're adept at both stripping the ball, or playing the passing lanes. Hell, one can make the argument that Lebron's penchant for chasedown blocks has made HIM slightly overrated on defense. I'd go as far as to say his own teammate, Wade, is more adept at shotblocking as Wade will challenge people, including centers, directly at the rim. Now, let me clarify that I'm not personally calling him overrated, but those fancy chase blocks doesn't necessarily equate to Lebron being noticeably superior to Jordan on that aspect. Jordan has a few seasons of 1.5 blocks a game, a number that Lebron has yet to reach and until Wade came along, was pretty unheard of from a guard. Shotblocking, between the two, is more or less a wash, or at least no obvious advantage.
Well imo when I think of a great defender I dont give any type of praise to steals at all. Infact I would rank Bruce Bowen as a better defender than both Jordan and LeBron easily even though Bruce Bowen is nothing spectacular when it comes to either steals or blocks. 80% of my leverage on judging defense (swingmen only) goes to perimeter defense, post defense and awareness as far as who and when to rotate to. 10% steals and 10% blocks. Now if we are talking about a big man then obviously blocks is going to play a bigger role since its their job to disrupt and give slashers problems. Jordan got lucky that during the prime years of his era there was mostly top big men and not many top swingmen. Nowadays there are so many swingmen who can post up who would have destroyed Jordan.

Quote:
I never bought up Jordan's ability as a post defender, so why do you raise it here? I'm quite aware of Jordan's inability to guard Magic during the 91 finals in the post, but let's apply some common sense here: Jordan at 6'6 and 198 wouldn't have the ability, from a size POV, to guard magic, at 6'9 220, like 6'8 225 Pippen, who obviously would match Magic size-wise. A mute point really, considering you went to great lengths to talk about his post defense, which was nowhere in my earlier point. As Lebron isn't a great post defender either, I'm not sure what you're going on about in this instance.
Its not like Magic Johnson was doing anything spectacular in the post against Jordan, infact Magic was doing the same thing over and over again. Magic just kept spinning off Jordan, no he wasnt backing him down or doing some hakeem olajuwon pump fakes, all he did was spin and it worked everytime. That is HORRIBLE defense letting someone spin off you every time (and its not like Magic Johnson had a speed advantage over Jordan). Now if we are talking about LeBron, the most skilled post swingmen in the league right now are Kobe and Melo, LeBron does a spectacular job against them when they decide to take it down low so I dont know where your getting this whole LeBron isnt a great post defender thing from. Melo or Kobe would absolutely manhandle a prime Jordan down low though.

Look at these videos
Skip to 6:20, 8:13

YouTube - ‪1991 NBA Finals Bulls vs. Lakers Game 3 (part 1)‬‏

Skip to 0:24 , 1:56,

YouTube - ‪1991 NBA Finals Bulls vs. Lakers Game 3 (Part 2)‬‏

Quote:
False.

For Lebron to be better, he's have to develop a GREAT post game, AND a GREAT jumper( neither of which he has right now) to compensate for what appears to be slightly diminishing slashing abilities. It's been stated repeatedly that Lebron doesn't appear quite as explosive or fast as prior years, which has impacted his driving. Which puts even more pressure on him to expand his other offensive abilities.
I disagree, if you have a good post game you don't need to have a jump shot. Guarding someone from the post is so much more problem causing than having to guard slashers or any type of style of play. That is why a lot of championship teams have had some sort of post presence because its impossible to shut down a post player. Add a solid post game with LeBrons ability to pass and its a very scary situation for opposing teams. All he really needs to work on is his horrible foot work down low and get a better feel for posting up, which I hope he does dedicate time into instead of trying to slash or take step back jump shots all the time. When he hits 29-30 his slashing game is going to start taking a huge dip so he should start preparing now. Jordan and Kobe seemed to both start to expand their offensive games the quickest during the ages of 26-28 and I hope LeBron does too.

Quote:
And I haven't even gone into the mental aspect of the game where Jordan's will to win appears much higher. It's an immeasurable point really, as it's not something that can be backed up with numbers, but anyone who's seen enough of both should logically be able to come to that conclusion.
That too is an overrated part of Jordan's game. A lot of people (not saying you do just a lot of people) say that Jordan is the most clutch player without question. The problem with that is that I bet they don't even know more than 2-3 clutch Jordan moments (probably the Cleveland shot and the Utah one finals 98). I have seen LeBron do some crazy things in the clutch a lot of times (Score at least 10 or more of his teams last points in a lot of situations etc). He does things in the 4th so that in most cases a game winner isn't even needed. I cannot really compare Jordan to LeBron's clutchness since I haven't really seen enough Jordan games to see if hes really that clutch. From the mental aspect though yes Jordan was probably the more cocky player but being overly confident is as much of a weakness as it is a good trait.
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:32 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,882,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItWasWritten View Post
Well imo when I think of a great defender I dont give any type of praise to steals at all.

I stopped paying attention there. Then there's nothing really to argue with you about on this matter. The ability to steal the ball is a major defensive ability, especially if its an ability to strip the ball. If you don't give any praise to stealing ability, then we fundamentally are opposed to each other on the matter, and I'm certainly not going to belabor the matter further with long posts.


Its not like Magic Johnson was doing anything spectacular in the post against Jordan, infact Magic was doing the same thing over and over again. Magic just kept spinning off Jordan, no he wasnt backing him down or doing some hakeem olajuwon pump fakes, all he did was spin and it worked everytime. That is HORRIBLE defense letting someone spin off you every time (and its not like Magic Johnson had a speed advantage over Jordan). Now if we are talking about LeBron, the most skilled post swingmen in the league right now are Kobe and Melo, LeBron does a spectacular job against them when they decide to take it down low so I dont know where your getting this whole LeBron isnt a great post defender thing from. Melo or Kobe would absolutely manhandle a prime Jordan down low though.

Didnt look at the videos. I'm not arguing about Jordan's post defense, so I have no need to look at the videos or even engage you on the matter. I talked about Jordan's ability to steal, shotblock, and play man to man. If I had mentioned post defense in my first post, then you'd have a point to argue. But I didn't, so you really don't, unless you're just in a lecturing mode about something I'm not discussing And no, I still wouldn't rate Lebron as a great post defender, based off what I've seen. Not bad, but not great.



I disagree, if you have a good post game you don't need to have a jump shot.

Stopped paying attention there too. How the hell is having a good post game AND a great jumpshot not an advantage? How does one NOT need a particular ability, if it makes them that much harder to contain?? It just makes it that much harder for a defender when the offensive player has so many skills to defend.

That's why you couldn't defend Jordan, because if he happened to be off on one aspect( or the defense took it away on a given night) he had other things to go to. Take away the drive, he'll pop jumpers all day( and he had a great ability to create space for jumpshots). If his jumper's off, he can go into the post. Foul him, he's 85% from the line. If Lebron is cut off from the lane by a great defensive team, and if his jumpshot is off, he can't do much offensively. This is why he struggled against the Celtics in 2008 and 2010 playoffs. Yeah he did better this year, but 1) the Celtics are not the same defensively as before, they're aging and 2) The Celtics couldn't totally focus on Lebron with Wade and Bosh to account for.

The fact that you say that a player doesn't 'need' a particular skill is, with all due respect and I am trying to respect your opinion, CRAZY.


That too is an overrated part of Jordan's game. A lot of people (not saying you do just a lot of people) say that Jordan is the most clutch player without question. The problem with that is that I bet they don't even know more than 2-3 clutch Jordan moments (probably the Cleveland shot and the Utah one finals 98). I have seen LeBron do some crazy things in the clutch a lot of times (Score at least 10 or more of his teams last points in a lot of situations etc). He does things in the 4th so that in most cases a game winner isn't even needed. I cannot really compare Jordan to LeBron's clutchness since I haven't really seen enough Jordan games to see if hes really that clutch. From the mental aspect though yes Jordan was probably the more cocky player but being overly confident is as much of a weakness as it is a good trait.

Lol, most sporting writers/experts/Jordan opponents cite his will as one of the things that makes him great. I guess you're the one who's enlightened about all this, yeah? And on the bolded point, LMAO. You're here trying to argue feverishly about Michael Jordan, and then claim you've not seen enough Jordan games?????!!!!! I have nothing further to say.
Listen, we'll agree to disagree. We're fundamentally opposed here and I'm not in the frame of mind to keep going back and forth with long, drawn out posts. I don't agree with you, so if you wish to keep at it, bear in mind its your own time being wasted because you're not convincing me with anything you're saying. Especially when you claim to have not seen many Jordan games.
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Old 05-31-2011, 04:33 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,882,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy View Post
Sorry I have to give the edge to Lebron in terms of shoot blocking.
I don't.... People forget Jordan was averaging 1.5 blocks at Lebron's age, despite being 3 inches shorter. I think the chase-down blocks have people thinking Lebron's some other-worldly shotblocker. At best, I'll say they're comparable, but I don't give the edge to Lebron here, especially taking into account his size advantage over Jordan. Hell Wade averages more blocks than Lebron....

Last edited by Roman77; 05-31-2011 at 06:00 AM..
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC
3,849 posts, read 3,973,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItWasWritten View Post
False

Jordan has got to be the most overrated defender of all time. The only thing that stands out to me about Jordan's defense is that he seemed to have this inhumane ability to strip the ball of defenders, its impressive for a guy to get most steals from stripping versus playing passing lanes (especially because he wasn't fouling the guy). His man to man defense and overall effectiveness in rotating to defenders is not on LeBron's level. Jordan should be compared more to Wade defensively than someone like LeBron or Kobe imho, hugely overrated defender who won a DPOY based on popularity instead of actual defensive skill. Im not saying he was a bad defender or anything but hes more of a Wade category versus someone like Bruce Bowen, prime Artest or prime Battier.
Thank you IWW, I've been saying this for years. How on earth did Jordan win those defensive player of the year awards when he was never the best defender on his team! That was clearly Scottie Pippen.

Jordan was comparable to Larry Bird on defense, usually the help defender to Pippen and McHale's man stopper.

Often it was Jordan's man hitting alot of 3s and driving to the hoop cuz Jordan was playing poorly disciplined D. And the last 5-7 years of his career, his defense was barely average.
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back to NE View Post
Thank you IWW, I've been saying this for years. How on earth did Jordan win those defensive player of the year awards when he was never the best defender on his team! That was clearly Scottie Pippen.
Ah.... Jordan won the 1988 defensive player award....when Pippen was a rookie.

I agree though, Jordan only averaged 3.16 steals and 1.6 blocks that year. Horribly overrated defender....
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:21 AM
 
Location: South Side
3,861 posts, read 9,367,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy View Post
Sorry I have to give the edge to Lebron in terms of shoot blocking.
I concur. LeBron is a much better defender. In the final seconds, he twice shut down Rose. That's no mean feat.

Plus, James is a great shooter and at least as formidable as MJ on a slash to the basket.
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Earth
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YouTube - ‪In Jordan's Defense...‬‏

YouTube - ‪The best defender in the game‬‏

Overrated my ass....
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:02 AM
 
1,742 posts, read 5,003,220 times
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Lebron isn't even better than Kobe. Lebron hasn't even won a title yet, and even if he does it won't have been without Wade and Bosh.
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:23 PM
 
Location: The "Rock"
2,551 posts, read 2,415,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manigault View Post
...James is a great shooter


That's laughable...
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