U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-14-2011, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Baltimore
420 posts, read 681,060 times
Reputation: 200

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
To the NBA Champion Dallas Mavs, Yes. He is the guy who dropped 81 in a game, something MJ didn't do.


So that explains 3 of the 5 rings... That's why Shaq earn what 1 more ring since yet Kobe got 2 more... It also explain the ones he won with Orlando.. oh wait he couldn't do it there. Hey MJ couldn't do it without Pippen.


Don't forget his regular season MVP trophy and the 4 All Star MVP awards. Also, All-NBA first team most of his career. #10 All Time in Points Per Game, #8 All Time in Points made


+50... try 49.7%... a whole 4% more.



MJ, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Ewing, Miller, Barkley, ... hey I could go on if you would like. He didn't stand alone.

Kobe is a 15 season veteran. Lets compare apples to apples. Jordan's 15th to Kobe's 15th.

Kobe - 25.3pts on 45.1% shooting, 5.1 reb, 4.7ast; team made second round of playoffs
MJ - 20pts on 44.5% shooting, 6.1 reb, 3.8 ast; team didn't make the playoffs

Again, Kobe and Michael play/ed a similiar game. Both are great slashers with a good jumpshot and they both play really good defense.
scoring 81 points against the worst team in the league isnt saying much. lets see him do that in the playoffs. then, lets see him get 6 finals MVP's. as of this season kobe has now played more games than MJ, yet his points total still has ways to go.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-14-2011, 09:25 AM
 
297 posts, read 341,799 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMR23 View Post
as of this season kobe has now played more games than MJ, yet his points total still has ways to go.
Let me first say that Kobe, unless he somehow goes on some amazing streak to end his career and wins 2-3 more titles in a dominant role, will always be second fiddle to MJ. And I am a Laker fan. Heck, it is debatable that he can even finish his career as even the greatest Laker of all time.

But the argument I quoted is flawed. Kobe came in straight from high school and was a scrawny little kid. His scoring numbers didn't explode until his 3rd or 4th season.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2011, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,900,402 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalobrandon View Post

But the argument I quoted is flawed. Kobe came in straight from high school and was a scrawny little kid. His scoring numbers didn't explode until his 3rd or 4th season.
Not necessarily. By his 4th season, he was 21( same as Jordan's rookie year) and putting up 22 points a game. After that his scoring numbers went up, between 25-30 points a game. And I don't believe it to be a case of Shaq taking away from his scoring numbers, because aside from the 35ppg explosion in 2006, Kobe's numbers have been between 25-31 points a game overall.

And in truth, with no other true serious scoring threat on those Lakers 3peat teams 2000-2002, Kobe rarely had to face the kind of double and triple-teams Jordan faced on a nightly basis, as Shaq's presence allowed him to play largely against single coverage. Jordan from the ages of 21-35, simply scored at a higher clip. Not only that, but a far more efficient clip. A 49 percent shooter compared to a 45 percent shooter, while 4% sounds small, is actually a HUGE difference when taking into account the volume of shots Jordan and Kobe took/take.

And let's face it, Jordan's final two Wizard years actually dropped his scoring and field goal percentages. When he retired from the Bulls in 1998, his averages were close to 32 ppg and over 50% shooting. That's extraordinary efficiency for the volume of shots taken, particularly as a guard.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2011, 04:53 PM
 
297 posts, read 341,799 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
And let's face it, Jordan's final two Wizard years actually dropped his scoring and field goal percentages. When he retired from the Bulls in 1998, his averages were close to 32 ppg and over 50% shooting. That's extraordinary efficiency for the volume of shots taken, particularly as a guard.
You're absolutely right about the efficiency. Jordan was much better. I think largely because he was able to attack the basket more and took less 3 pointers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2011, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,958,923 times
Reputation: 1357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
This isn't apples to apples, Jordan was 40 that season. The fairest thing to do would be to measure Jordan's 96-98 seasons, when he was closer in age to Kobe now (33 or so) and had played 13-14 seasons, and both at the end of their 'prime'. And even here, aside from Kobe's scoring the numbers are pretty comparable, and team-wise, I think it's safe to say the Wizards back then don't sniff the guys Kobe is currently with.
Fair enough. But as for Kobe playing with better players, note what that means is his numbers should be down since there are other good players on his team vs Jordan who should have had better numbers since he couldn't rely on his teammates as much. Though, again, I give you the age difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy
-You didn't really just compare Jordan to Ewing, Miller etc? Bird, Magic and Hakeem are closer but still not quite there over the totality of thier careers. I would certainly agree there were some years where Hakeem was playing as well as anyone ever has.
Not comparing the other players. The post I referred I took the message as in MJ played with a bunch of kids. I was stating Jordan played against other players (who I listed) that were great in their own areas during his days of playing the game. Personally as I stated in another thread on here, I think Magic was the best to play the game; a player who made everyone around him way better, who could play any position, and had crazy ball handling skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMR23
scoring 81 points against the worst team in the league isnt saying much
That explains why it happens everytime someone plays the Raptors, Wolves, new Cavs, etc... Yeah it doesn't happen. We are lucky to even witness someone scoring 40-50 pts, which is rare; let alone 81 points, only second to Wilt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977
And in truth, with no other true serious scoring threat on those Lakers 3peat teams 2000-2002, Kobe rarely had to face the kind of double and triple-teams Jordan faced on a nightly basis, as Shaq's presence allowed him to play largely against single coverage.
Rarely... Kobe faced/faces doubling all the time. During the 3peat, he had to work on double teams all the time. The guys that had the opportunity at 1-on-1/open were the Robert Horry's/Rick Fox's of the team . Also flawed in the logic, his best number years was when the Lakers were Kobe and ... (still thinking)... Kwame Brown (*snickering*)... and Odom.

Quote:
A 49 percent shooter compared to a 45 percent shooter, while 4% sounds small, is actually a HUGE difference when taking into account the volume of shots Jordan and Kobe took/take.
Addressing the shooting percentage deal...

It actually isn't that large as you guys think. Kobe on career averages 19.4 shots/game. He made 8.8 shots/game for a 45% shooting average. Say Kobe made 1 extra shot/game he would then be at a 50% shooting average. So it isn't as big as you think...

Lastly, I never once said Kobe is a better player than Jordan. Jordan obviously is a better player. All I am saying is they play a very similiar game.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2011, 12:34 AM
 
4,733 posts, read 4,798,432 times
Reputation: 5865
I'm not saying Kevin McHale was a top 10 player, but I wonder how he would be looked at today if he did not play in Bird's shadow. McHale was a great talent. I watched that Celtic team play hundreds of times & IMO there were times Kevin played just as well, or better than Larry. Bird often said that McHale should have won an MVP, but he felt that Kevin did not put in enough effort working on his game, and never reached his potential. But Bird & McHale did not get along very well, and were cool to each other off court so Larry had issues with Kevin that were personal in nature.

Sorry for getting somewhat off topic.....but McHale has got to be one of the most overlooked guys when people talk about best players ever. He's in my top 20 for sure.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Austell, Georgia
2,155 posts, read 3,060,185 times
Reputation: 2025
Jordan
Wilt
Bird
Kobe
Tim Duncan
Dominique Wilkins
Russell
Allen Iverson
Karl Malone
Hakeem Oljuwaun
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,900,402 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
Fair enough. But as for Kobe playing with better players, note what that means is his numbers should be down since there are other good players on his team vs Jordan who should have had better numbers since he couldn't rely on his teammates as much. Though, again, I give you the age difference.


The age difference and point they were in their careers supersedes any other point being made here.



Rarely... Kobe faced/faces doubling all the time. During the 3peat, he had to work on double teams all the time. The guys that had the opportunity at 1-on-1/open were the Robert Horry's/Rick Fox's of the team . Also flawed in the logic, his best number years was when the Lakers were Kobe and ... (still thinking)... Kwame Brown (*snickering*)... and Odom.


Kobe didn't face as many double and triple teams when Shaq was on the team, because Shaq was the main focus for an opposing team's offense. This allowed Kobe to play against single coverage many times. He saw more doubles and triples when Shaq left, but that wasn't the argument. I was talking about what he faced playing with Shaq. Jordan was consistently doubled and tripled every night as he was the sole focus of a team's defense EVERY night during his heydey. And his numbers were still better.



Addressing the shooting percentage deal...

It actually isn't that large as you guys think. Kobe on career averages 19.4 shots/game. He made 8.8 shots/game for a 45% shooting average. Say Kobe made 1 extra shot/game he would then be at a 50% shooting average. So it isn't as big as you think...

Lastly, I never once said Kobe is a better player than Jordan. Jordan obviously is a better player. All I am saying is they play a very similar game.

His career shot average is heavily skewed by his first few seasons. What are his shot averages from about his 4th season, when he become a high scorer? Michael Jordan scored 35ppg in 1988 and shot 53%. Kobe scored 35ppg in 2006 and shot 45%. Which would suggest that Jordan was a much better high shot, high volume scorer than Kobe was/is. And the thing is, Jordan scored 35 points without the benefit of a decent 3 point shot at that stage, which just shows you how exceptional his 2 point efficiency was. Kobe's percentages would probably be higher, if he hadn't fallen in love so much with the 3. Which brings up another point: shot selection.

No-one's said they don't play a similar game. Jordan simply did it better.

Reply in bold.

Last edited by Roman77; 06-21-2011 at 07:10 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,900,402 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATUMRE75 View Post
Jordan
Wilt
Bird
Kobe
Tim Duncan
Dominique Wilkins
Russell
Allen Iverson
Karl Malone
Hakeem Oljuwaun
Oh my.......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-21-2011, 09:56 AM
 
297 posts, read 341,799 times
Reputation: 135
I think unfortunately for us as fans, Kobe was at his peak in the 05-06 and 06-07 seasons, and his team pretty much resembled that of Lebron's Cavs. Had the Lakers acquired Pau for Kwame two years earlier we could have really seen Kobe at his best in the playoffs. I hope he proves me wrong, but I think Kobe will start to show his age over the next couple of seasons. He'll still play at a high level but I don't expect him to be considered a top five player in the game anymore.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top