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Old 06-28-2011, 04:28 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
Hakeem was a brilliant player, but he went under the radar.

-Not as marketable. Difficult name.
-He wasn't a flashy player, more like Tim Duncan. More of a fundamentals guy than see this dunk.
-Houston is a smaller media market.

Plus he played in a high skilled era...like david robinson. A lot of reasons why he's sort of under the radar when it comes to debates.

Glen Robinson and other rookies from his time.

Olajuwon never got the national spotlight he should have gotten. His skills got overshadowed by Jordan in the middle 90's.
Not sure he's under the radar. Many people seem to put him in the top 10 list all-time, which would indicate his talents are recognized.

Personally I think his offensive style did have some flash to it, his post moves were dazzling. He had a lot of substance to his game as well. I'm not sure how being 'highly-skilled' puts you under the radar. Most of the best players in people's top 10 ( Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe) are considered 'highly skilled' players. So 'skill' certainly didn't have them 'under the radar'.

Glen Robinson Talk about a random name. Where does he factor into the equation here?

The mid 90's was when Hakeem was considered the best, because the mid 90's was when Jordan was retired, and the Rockets won back to back.
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itshim View Post
because the youngest Shaq wasn't necessarily the best Shaq. Akeem was a great player, but I don't think he would have been able to stop Shaq (Diesel) circa 1999-2003. It's debatable, but I don't see it happening.

Keep in mind, the picture 15 years later may have been drawn differently if the Magic had of won. The Magic back then lost the game on the line. They were a notoriously poor free throw shooting team...led by shaq in that department.

Personally, in his peak I'd put Shaq in the top 3.
Keep in mind, though, that Shaq played with Kobe Bryant and a solid group of veterans, including Robert Horry and Ron Harper, both of whom had championship experience. Hakeem Olajuwon carried the Rockets more than Shaq did with the Lakers. I know people will point out that the Rockets won their titles when MJ was playing baseball, but MJ left two more good years on the shelf in 1998, and Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen both left Chicago shortly thereafter, so I think the same logic could apply to the Lakers of 2000. The Lakers of 2001 were one of the best teams I've seen, though. I still think Hakeem was a better pure player, although Shaquille O'Neal was unstoppable in the paint. Olajuwon would have won with Kobe for sure, and there might actually have been less of the immature one-upsmanship between the two stars.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post

I know people will point out that the Rockets won their titles when MJ was playing baseball, but MJ left two more good years on the shelf in 1998, and Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen both left Chicago shortly thereafter, so I think the same logic could apply to the Lakers of 2000.
I'm not so sure the Bulls would have won again after 1998. For one, they were coming off a 3-peat and let's face it, the Bulls were aging. The 1998 team was probably the least talented Bulls title team. They were pushed to the brink by the Pacers, many forget they were trailing big in that game 7.

I think the team had more or maximized its talents and were on the down-slope. Also remember, Pippen had back surgery the summer of 98, and wasn't the same player again( if you recall, his back hampered him during the finals against Utah, with Jordan practically going it along in the title clincher).

Perhaps the shortened 99 season( lockout year) could have allowed them to 'squeeze' out one more title, though I'm not sure they could have dealt with the Duncan-Robinson combo. But I don't see them beating LA in 2000. Not with the aging stars, not with Shaq at his unstoppable best and an emerging Kobe Bryant. I think that's part of the mystique surrounding that Bulls team, unlike other great champions they were never beaten, the team simply.....ended(Jordan retired, Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, Jackson left etc). Which isn't necessarily a good thing, in sports it helps the validation of the new generation for them to 'take the torch' from the older champion. Never happened with Chicago....
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Old 06-28-2011, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Not sure he's under the radar. Many people seem to put him in the top 10 list all-time, which would indicate his talents are recognized.

Personally I think his offensive style did have some flash to it, his post moves were dazzling. He had a lot of substance to his game as well. I'm not sure how being 'highly-skilled' puts you under the radar. Most of the best players in people's top 10 ( Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe) are considered 'highly skilled' players. So 'skill' certainly didn't have them 'under the radar'.

Glen Robinson Talk about a random name. Where does he factor into the equation here?

The mid 90's was when Hakeem was considered the best, because the mid 90's was when Jordan was retired, and the Rockets won back to back.
Shaq was a part of this big rookie pack from 1992 to 94/95 that started getting big contracts and media exposure. A lot of them had high expectations like Glen Robinson (the $100 million man).

Seems like Shaq really broke away from this pack and improved his game after 96 or 98. Thus, Jamal Mashburn, Rider, Mourning, all these guys. None of them really made the big time. They were stuck at say, level 1.

Shaq went to level 2, maturing from Orlando. Then pretty much level 3 or 4. 4 rings. 3 finals mvp's. All the top accolades for a center.

The 90's had so much talent, Olajuwon sort of gets overshadowed, even though he's on many top 10, top 15 lists. Pippen I think was underrated. Drexler? Bird and Magic. Ewing and Robinson. Stockton, Malone.

If you had Olajuwon with 4 random players, and Shaq with 4 random players..Olajuwon would probably carry the team longer. Shaq would be more dominant in spurts. They would go head to head against each other really well.
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Old 06-29-2011, 04:32 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post

Shaq was a part of this big rookie pack from 1992 to 94/95 that started getting big contracts and media exposure. A lot of them had high expectations like Glen Robinson (the $100 million man).

Seems like Shaq really broke away from this pack and improved his game after 96 or 98. Thus, Jamal Mashburn, Rider, Mourning, all these guys. None of them really made the big time. They were stuck at say, level 1.

Shaq went to level 2, maturing from Orlando. Then pretty much level 3 or 4. 4 rings. 3 finals mvp's. All the top accolades for a center.

The 90's had so much talent, Olajuwon sort of gets overshadowed, even though he's on many top 10, top 15 lists. Pippen I think was underrated. Drexler? Bird and Magic. Ewing and Robinson. Stockton, Malone.
I won't get too much into the level 1/2/3/4 stuff, sounds like you're talking about a video game RPG.

But I'll maintain that Hakeem was considered the best player the two years Jordan retired. That's hardly being 'overshadowed'..... Obviously people acknowledge him fine if he's considered a top 10 ALL-TIME player. If anything, there's tons of players from the 90's whose names have faded from memory the past decade( Drexler, Chris Mullin, Tim Hardaway, etc etc) but Hakeem's name and legacy has endured. And a big part of this, is that the 2000's have been a bad decade for centers. No-one's come along to make us 'forget' Hakeem in the same way people like Kobe or Wade has made us 'forget' about someone like Drexler. Hakeem is still very much a name thrown around in today's message boards when discussing all-time greats, and specifically great centers. Again, he gets his props.....hardly overshadowed.
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:41 AM
 
Location: So California
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I think Hakeem was very good, but not top 10 all time. There were several very good centers in the league then, and then Shaq came along and became the best center of the last 20 years, in some ways he did overshadow Hakeem. Although, Hakeem had far better skills.
Hakeem was one of those guys, like Dirk is now, that had a very strong career, always good numbers, good guy.....and then bam, he had an amazing playoff run (2), that vaulted him up over his contemporaries. I think, Shaq did overshadow him, because people liked his power game that we just had not seen before. He was just so powerful and unstoppable (unless he had to shoot a freethrow). Its the same reason people will vote all of the high flying dunkers ahead of Dirk in all star voting.....
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slo1318 View Post
I think Hakeem was very good, but not top 10 all time. There were several very good centers in the league then, and then Shaq came along and became the best center of the last 20 years, in some ways he did overshadow Hakeem. Although, Hakeem had far better skills.
Hakeem was one of those guys, like Dirk is now, that had a very strong career, always good numbers, good guy.....and then bam, he had an amazing playoff run (2), that vaulted him up over his contemporaries. Shaq did overshadow him, because people liked his power game, that we just had not seen before. Its the same reason people will vote all of high flying dunkers ahead of Dirk in all star voting.....
Whether he's top 10 all time is totally subjective. It's all subjective....really. You've got a core group that seems to be in everyone's top 10: Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell.... then you've got a bunch in that next tier that includes Shaq, Hakeem, Oscar, Kobe, Duncan, West. Juggle them in whatever order you like at that point....

Shaq's power game had been seen before, he was called Wilt Chamberlain. To me comparing Shaq and Hakeem is like comparing Wilt and Kareem. How do you like your dominance, with power and overwhelming physical ability, or grace and 'skill'? Apples and oranges.....

Last edited by Roman77; 06-29-2011 at 07:59 AM..
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:31 AM
 
297 posts, read 340,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Whether he's top 10 all time is totally subjective. It's all subjective....really. You've got a core group that seems to be in everyone's top 10: Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell.... then you've got a bunch in that next tier that includes Shaq, Hakeem, Oscar, Kobe, Duncan, West. Juggle them in whatever order you like at that point....
The majority of top 10 lists I have seen, like 90% of them or greater, do not include Hakeem.
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:38 AM
FBJ FBJ started this thread
 
Location: Tall Building down by the river
39,615 posts, read 50,353,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I'm not so sure the Bulls would have won again after 1998. For one, they were coming off a 3-peat and let's face it, the Bulls were aging. The 1998 team was probably the least talented Bulls title team. They were pushed to the brink by the Pacers, many forget they were trailing big in that game 7.

I think the team had more or maximized its talents and were on the down-slope. Also remember, Pippen had back surgery the summer of 98, and wasn't the same player again( if you recall, his back hampered him during the finals against Utah, with Jordan practically going it along in the title clincher).

Perhaps the shortened 99 season( lockout year) could have allowed them to 'squeeze' out one more title, though I'm not sure they could have dealt with the Duncan-Robinson combo. But I don't see them beating LA in 2000. Not with the aging stars, not with Shaq at his unstoppable best and an emerging Kobe Bryant. I think that's part of the mystique surrounding that Bulls team, unlike other great champions they were never beaten, the team simply.....ended(Jordan retired, Pippen, Kukoc, Rodman, Jackson left etc). Which isn't necessarily a good thing, in sports it helps the validation of the new generation for them to 'take the torch' from the older champion. Never happened with Chicago....

I don't remember the Buls trailing AT CHICAGO in a game 7 versus the Pacers. Are you sure it wasn't game 6?
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Cook County
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Pacers dominated the 1st qtr, but that was about it.

Indiana Pacers at Chicago Bulls Box Score, May 31, 1998 | Basketball-Reference.com
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