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Old 06-29-2011, 12:33 PM
FBJ FBJ started this thread
 
Location: Tall Building down by the river
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
lol.

what happened on the court doesn't matter at all right?
I was forced to accept that MJ was a basketball god early in my teens because my mom was going to put me in a home for the mentally ill if I had continued going crazy the way I would during the 1991-1993 era when the bulls always prevail. So by 1996 I already prepared myself for the Bulls to find a way to win because of MJ. I never let another team make me believe that they were going to beat Chicago
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Old 06-29-2011, 12:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVandSportsGuy View Post
I was forced that MJ was a basketball god early in my teens because my mom was going to put me in a home for the mentally ill if I had continued going crazy the way I would during the 1991-1993 era. So by 1996 I already prepared myself for the Bulls to find a way to win because of MJ. I never let another team make me believe that they were going to beat Chicago

Not even a prime Charles Barkley could beat MJ and he was the best player in the league after him at one point.
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Old 06-29-2011, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVandSportsGuy View Post
It was evient to me because of two things

1. they were in chicago
2. They had michael jordan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaolin070388 View Post
Yes, 35 year old Michael Jordan that went 9-25 and 10-15 at the foul line in a game 7. That 1998 Bulls squad was the least talented of Chicago's championship teams.

Shaolin, you're new here. Note the post I quoted above you, you'll soon know not to bother taking him seriously.
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Old 06-30-2011, 04:31 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I won't get too much into the level 1/2/3/4 stuff, sounds like you're talking about a video game RPG.

But I'll maintain that Hakeem was considered the best player the two years Jordan retired. That's hardly being 'overshadowed'..... Obviously people acknowledge him fine if he's considered a top 10 ALL-TIME player. If anything, there's tons of players from the 90's whose names have faded from memory the past decade( Drexler, Chris Mullin, Tim Hardaway, etc etc) but Hakeem's name and legacy has endured. And a big part of this, is that the 2000's have been a bad decade for centers. No-one's come along to make us 'forget' Hakeem in the same way people like Kobe or Wade has made us 'forget' about someone like Drexler. Hakeem is still very much a name thrown around in today's message boards when discussing all-time greats, and specifically great centers. Again, he gets his props.....hardly overshadowed.
You can break them into tiers or levels because there was such a large rookie crop...

-Jason Kidd
-Grant hill
-laettner
-Harold Miner (Baby Jordan)
-Mourning
-Shawn Bradley

Very few came anywhere close to their potential. Remember the hype around Shawn Bradley for a little while? Most never went anywhere. Shaq was able to break through.

The 90's had an incredible amount of talent.

top players - bird, magic, isiah thomas, drexler, ewing, mullin, robinson, etc.

underneath that - buck williams, kevin willis. Remember when he averaged, I think 15 rebounds a season? Terry porter. Ricky Pierce. You had a very rich pool of talent.

Some have faded badly. Does anyone remember run tmc? I haven't kept up with top 10 or 20 lists lately. The NBA isn't what it once was.
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:04 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
You can break them into tiers or levels because there was such a large rookie crop...

-Jason Kidd
-Grant hill
-laettner
-Harold Miner (Baby Jordan)
-Mourning
-Shawn Bradley

Very few came anywhere close to their potential. Remember the hype around Shawn Bradley for a little while? Most never went anywhere. Shaq was able to break through.

The 90's had an incredible amount of talent.

top players - bird, magic, isiah thomas, drexler, ewing, mullin, robinson, etc.

underneath that - buck williams, kevin willis. Remember when he averaged, I think 15 rebounds a season? Terry porter. Ricky Pierce. You had a very rich pool of talent.

Some have faded badly. Does anyone remember run tmc? I haven't kept up with top 10 or 20 lists lately. The NBA isn't what it once was.

I'd say the bolded did reach their potential, I'm not going to hold injuries against Hill and Mourning, they were elite players prior to their injury issues. Bradley not reaching his potential??? That's only if you had high expectations for him to start with. Minor? He was 6'5, jump, black and bald. Baby Jordan?? Only in appearance, certainly not in playing style or ability.

Buck Williams, Kevin Willis, Porter, Pierce were as much '80's' players as they were 90's. Not sure where you're going throwing out these random names though, we're debating Hakeem and Shaq. You're kinda going off into left field a bit here....

Run TMC? Check out the draft we just finished, you'll see some specific references to Run TMC.
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
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I've been following this discussion with interest, since Hakeem is my favorite player. A few thoughts.

Hakeem in his prime vs Shaq in his prime? I think Hakeem wins, for one reason; he could dominate at BOTH ends, and that's important to note. Yeah Shaq was a monster offensively, but he was horrible on defense, he was never a great shot blocker (averaged well under three a game for his career) and his man to man defense was just bad.

One thing that doesnt get mentioned enough is that Shaq got REALLY lucky that from 2000 through 2005 there wasnt really a dominant center in the game...Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, Mutombo were either injured, retired or close to retirement, well past their primes...the only legit center in the 2000-2010 era would be Dwight Howard, and MAYBE Andrew Bynum, depending on how you feel about him. But neither one of those two were in their prime at the same time as Shaq, so basically Shaq had free reign for several years.

As someone mentioned earlier, Hakeem did most of his work against some of the best centers of all time, many of whom are in the Hall of Fame (or soon will be), take your pick from Kareem, Parish, Walton, Ewing, Robinson etc, and here is the thing; he either outperformed or held his own against almost all of them
In 1986 Houston faced Boston for the chip, even though Boston won the series 4-2, it's widely acknowledged that Hakeem more than held his own against the Boston front line, which has been hailed as the greatest of all time. Youtube Hakeem vs McHale to see what I'm talking about. Also read Bill Simmons book. WHen Simmons, a notorious Celtic groupie, is giving Hakeem love that should tell you something.

Hakeem DESTROYED Ewing, Robinson and Shaq back to back to back. Show me any series Shaq has played in his entire career where he thoroughly outplayed a Hall Of Fame center, I'll be here waiting. and no, Todd McCoullough does not count, but I'll give you Mutombo, even though he was old as dirt by the time he played for the Sixers.

Finally, Michael Jordan himself said that he would pick Hakeem for his all time team ahead of Shaq, and made it a point to discuss that in detail, saying that as great as Shaq was, Hakeem was still the Man when you talked about centers. And this interview was after Shaq had won his 3 with the Lakers. If it's good enough for MJ, then it's good enough for me.
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Old 07-01-2011, 04:19 AM
 
Location: Earth
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^ What he said.
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Old 07-01-2011, 06:09 AM
 
Location: spring tx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post

Hakeem DESTROYED Ewing, Robinson and Shaq back to back to back. Show me any series Shaq has played in his entire career where he thoroughly outplayed a Hall Of Fame center, I'll be here waiting. and no, Todd McCoullough does not count, but I'll give you Mutombo, even though he was old as dirt by the time he played for the Sixers.
ok i have avoided this thread as it seemed ridiculous to me from the start but i have to chime in one this one.

i think a lot of emphasis has been put on a very small period in nba time with this statement. hakeem dominated a single series vs robinson, in said series david robinson was put on an island playing man to man defense against hakeem while the rockets repeatedly double and triple teamed david. all the highlights of hakeem giving his shake and all that are very subjective. hakeem was not a one man wrecking crew against david he had it easy because david had to defend him and was getting pounded at the other end by guys like robert horry on double teams. i am so tired of hearing about that single series, i am a spurs fan living in houston so yes i hear it a lot, and i was also at 2 of those games that year.
here are hakeem vs robinsons head to head numbers for their careers
David Robinson vs. Hakeem Olajuwon | Basketball-Reference.com

now on to patrick ewing, while a good offensive player, all i can say abotu him is he was vastly over rated IMO.
Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Patrick Ewing | Basketball-Reference.com

now to shaq, hakeem beat up on shaq much like he did against robinson, with help defense while shaq played heads up. the thing people dont seem to realize due to the blindingly misrepresented highlights is that the rockets where excellent team defenders. their rotations where very good and hakeem was NEVER a one on one defender against the greats, its just good basketball.

now all this has been made about how shaq never played prime top level guys, but hakeem never won against them outside of a couple of years.

Shaquille O'Neal vs. Hakeem Olajuwon | Basketball-Reference.com

Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar | Basketball-Reference.com

Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Karl Malone | Basketball-Reference.com

thats 5 different centers/pf from 3 different eras. look at his numbers head to head, he did not dominate a single one of them, and most of the numbers where very close, BUT he has a losing record against every single one of them. while part of that is team vs team, head to head numbers being so even that W/L has to be taken into account. the only center/pf i see hakeem with a clear statistical advantage on is patrick ewing but they are even W/L.

now all this said i still say hakeem is better then shaq because he did play better defense and was just more fundamentally sound but i would not say it is a blow out
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Old 07-01-2011, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Earth
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I'd have to agree with Rigas to a point there. Prior to 1994, Hakeem wasn't considered the undisputed best center in the game. In fact David Robinson was getting that kind of talk it seemed by the early 90's. Then the 1995 playoffs hit, and David Robinson got caught in that ferocious storm from Hakeem which, perhaps somewhat unfairly, both elevated Hakeem and dropped the Admiral down a peg in terms of how each man is viewed historically. Reality is, with Jordan gone the center of attention( pun intended) turned to the centers.

The argument about Shaq's domination in the 2000's stand though. He never had to contend with any really serious competition like who he faced in the 90's, and names like Mourning and Mutumbo haven't even been raised much in this debate.
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,690 posts, read 2,470,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
ok i have avoided this thread as it seemed ridiculous to me from the start but i have to chime in one this one.

i think a lot of emphasis has been put on a very small period in nba time with this statement. hakeem dominated a single series vs robinson, in said series david robinson was put on an island playing man to man defense against hakeem while the rockets repeatedly double and triple teamed david. all the highlights of hakeem giving his shake and all that are very subjective. hakeem was not a one man wrecking crew against david he had it easy because david had to defend him and was getting pounded at the other end by guys like robert horry on double teams. i am so tired of hearing about that single series, i am a spurs fan living in houston so yes i hear it a lot, and i was also at 2 of those games that year.
here are hakeem vs robinsons head to head numbers for their careers
David Robinson vs. Hakeem Olajuwon | Basketball-Reference.com

now on to patrick ewing, while a good offensive player, all i can say abotu him is he was vastly over rated IMO.
Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Patrick Ewing | Basketball-Reference.com

now to shaq, hakeem beat up on shaq much like he did against robinson, with help defense while shaq played heads up. the thing people dont seem to realize due to the blindingly misrepresented highlights is that the rockets where excellent team defenders. their rotations where very good and hakeem was NEVER a one on one defender against the greats, its just good basketball.

now all this has been made about how shaq never played prime top level guys, but hakeem never won against them outside of a couple of years.

Shaquille O'Neal vs. Hakeem Olajuwon | Basketball-Reference.com

Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar | Basketball-Reference.com

Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Karl Malone | Basketball-Reference.com

thats 5 different centers/pf from 3 different eras. look at his numbers head to head, he did not dominate a single one of them, and most of the numbers where very close, BUT he has a losing record against every single one of them. while part of that is team vs team, head to head numbers being so even that W/L has to be taken into account. the only center/pf i see hakeem with a clear statistical advantage on is patrick ewing but they are even W/L.

now all this said i still say hakeem is better then shaq because he did play better defense and was just more fundamentally sound but i would not say it is a blow out

The first thing I would like to say is that I was never saying that Hakeem was so much better than Shaq for it to be a blow out. Shaq is a great, great player, I personally feel he underachieved but he still accomplished a Hall of Fame career. So now we have that out of the way...

You are PARTLY right in that Houston had a lot of great defenders who could all help out on Robinson, but I really have to question your knowledge because anyone who watched basketball in the 80s knows that Hakeem was one of the greatest defenders ever. And that's not really up for debate, he certainly was the best defender at the center position...check his record, he won Defensive Player of the year a couple of times, as well as making a bunch of First Team All Defense...but like I said, there was a great team defense so I'll give you some credit for that.

Next you compare Hakeem's numbers to other players...and here I'm sorry to say, your credibility hits rock bottom. For you to even mention Karl Malone and Hakeem in the same sentence is laughable. Just laughable. Anyone who watched Malone would know that he was the classic "score for 3 quarters and disappear in the 4th" Sure he put up monster numbers for most of his career but how well did Utah do? Stockton had to step up and become the crunchtime guy for them because Malone wasnt going to do it...I think this is a case where stats have to be taken in context...on paper Malone looks wonderful, but if you watched the games then you knew that he really doesnt belong in the discussion with the all time greats. Sorry

This is the same problem with Kareem...anyone who watched the NBA in the late 80s knows that Hakeem owned Kareem...ate him up...for you to say that Hakeem did not dominate the matchups with Kareem tells me that you never watched them play...you just pulled stats from some website and went with that...I watched the games...I promise you, Kareem didnt want no part of Hakeem. Now in fairness Kareem gets a pass because he was in his late 30s in the 80s when Hakeem was tearing him a new one...but to say Hakeem didnt dominate Kareem??? Sorry son, but you just revealed that you dont know much about 80s basketball.

Let me breakdown those win/loss stats for you further...the reason why Hakeem doesnt dominate statistically is because after the 86 trip to the Finals, the Rockets fell apart...Sampson got injured and was never the same, John Lucas had drug problems...the team just went to pieces and Hakeem became the Kevin Garnett of the 80s...one of the top ten greatest players stuck on a crappy team...it wasnt till the early 90s when Horry and Cassell joined him that he had a decent team and we all know how that worked out...

One of the greatest what-ifs that doesnt get discussed enough is who would win a Rockets-Bulls Finals? We never got to see it but I've discussed this with friends constantly...a young Rober Horry, a young Sam Cassell, Mad Max coming off the bench, and Hakeem in his prime...up against Jordan and Pippen...I dont know who would win but I think it would have been one hell of a series!
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