U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-13-2011, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,946,399 times
Reputation: 1357

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I don't agree. Even if they were capable of beating them, destroy is a gross exaggeration. The main advantage they have is Howard in the middle, and this year's Bulls had plenty of size( and quality size I should add) to throw at him.
Didn't you tell me Howard isn't good offensively? And that with the good games offensively he does have, he does it to weak big men? This year he dropped 40 on those "quality size" bigs you are referring to in Jan.

As for Omar Asik, close your eyes if you are a fan of his...

YouTube - ‪Dwight Howard Posterizes Vs The Bulls‬‏
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-13-2011, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,880,422 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastbias View Post

10-11 Cavs with Lebron better than 09-10 Cavs with Lebron? I'd say Yes, based on our owner and his sense of urgency and our pursuit of big names prior to Lebron bolting.

You're arguing purely on a hypothetical team. You have no idea whether the 2011 Cavs would have gotten anyone of significance to put around Lebron. He was surrounded with players who, to Lebron's credit, he was able to make into solid contributors, but they were largely dependent on Lebron to set the table for them. Cavs management was never able to get that one 'second' genuine star to put with Lebron.

If Lebron hadn't bolted, does Shaq and Delonte leave for Boston? Does Mo go to Los Angelos? There's way too many unknowns to say with absolute certainty the kind of team they'd have fielded. The only thing you can realistically do is argue the team based on the last time we saw them with Lebron, which was Shaq, Big Z, Varajeo, Mo Williams, Delonte, Hickson, Jamison etc. In other words, the team that lost to Boston in 2010.

Beyond that, trying to argue on who they 'could' have gotten, is pissing up a tree, it's no basis to make a solid argument on. This is me is like trying to make an argument that the Cavs would beat the Bulls IF you managed to get Dwight Howard and Dirk on your team. There's simply no way to determine WHO you would have gotten, to make an argument as to whether they'd beat the 2011 Bulls.



I guess I'm not as high on the Bulls as you would hope.

I don't really 'hope' one way or the other. I'm not a Cavs fan, nor am I a Bulls fan. I'm giving an assessment of the two teams without any bias. With all due respect, you did use the term 'we' in reference to the Cavs, so I take that to mean you're a Cavs fan. Which would lead me to question if you are able to have an objective discussion where they're concerned. Not trying to be nasty or have an 'attitude', just a genuine concern where this particular debate goes.


Sadly, as much as I'm rooting against the Heat- I could see them working together better and beating the Bulls worse this next year.

It's reasonable to assume that the Heat will continue to get better. How next year's Bulls team fares against them, I don't know. I don't know who the Bulls can get in the off-season to improve their team, beyond the natural improvement that guys like Rose and Noah have shown and will likely have as players. So I can't, and won't, make a prediction one way or the other.

If they get Howard for Lebron- competitive basketball is over. Wade and Howard would be a lethal combo. The East as playoff time hit was bad this year.

This is more hypothetics based on....nothing really. There's nothing to suggest that you'll see Lebron swapped for Howard, to even begin to make any kind of point about this.

Shaq was a problem/bad fit for the Cavs- many astute basketball minds would tell you that.

Shaq was brought in to provide interior muscle against Howard, a move prompted by the Cavs' loss to the Magic the prior season. They never got to meet to see if that idea would have worked, because the Cavs lost to the Celtics.


I know you don't like Mo, and I think you see a similar deal with Mo going to the Clips.

Don't recall ever saying that, that's a pretty sweeping generalization.


We never saw Lebron with a True Point when he was in Cleveland.

Lebron effectively played the point forward role. For all purposes, he was the point guard,making plays for others as well as himself.


As far as Bosh goes, I don't think we needed Bosh to make it to the finals, but we inquired about him and pursued him-

And he made it clear he had no interest in going to Cleveland. Make what you will of that one.

what makes you think that Plan B (IF Lebron re-signed) wouldn't be decent- we had trade chips and an owner willing to go to luxury tax hell and back.

I don't know what your plan B was. The reality is, once Lebron left, what reason would marquee stars have had to sign with the Cavs? What guarantee did you have that someone big would have signed HAD he stayed? Bosh, who's a second tier star, didn't want to go. Do you think you had a shot at landing Amare, Wade....someone like that? The reality is that I suspect Lebron was the lynchpin to everything, once he committed to Miami everyone else on the market was forced to enact plan B, C, D, E, F........Z.


I don't share the same enthusiam that you have for Noah on the defensive end.

That's ok, you don't have to. That's the wonderful thing about differing opinions.


Howard would own him and he would be on the bench most of series in foul trouble.

Have the advantage, yes. Own? A bit of an overstatement. And the Bulls had plenty of bigs to put Howard on the foul-line and make him beat you there. Which isn't happening....


Deng and Gibson would be challenged in our hypothetical with Turk and Lewis extending swinging the ball around (like they did so well) and shooting over them.

Taj Gibson, at times during the 2011 Bulls-Heat matchup, was doing a really good job defending Lebron. It's safe to say Lewis isn't going to make mincemeat out of him. Turk has to play defense on Deng too... and Deng is a pretty damn good defender. I don't think you claim any real advantage there, at least not one significant enough to swing the matchup Orlando's way.


Maybe I went too far with the attitude comment. I just see alot more Bulls enthusiasts have been awakened with their recent success.

I am an NBA fan, not a Bulls enthusiast.

I predict disappoint from them in coming years - just my opinion though.

Stick around- they may surprise you.

Bold reply.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-13-2011, 11:56 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,880,422 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
Didn't you tell me Howard isn't good offensively? And that with the good games offensively he does have, he does it to weak big men? This year he dropped 40 on those "quality size" bigs you are referring to in Jan.

Please don't bore me anymore. Howard has a physical advantage in a matchup with Noah. That's all I have to say to you on that matter.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-13-2011, 11:58 AM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,198,412 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Please don't bore me anymore. Howard has a physical advantage in a matchup with Noah. That's all I have to say to you on that matter.
NOAH wasnt even playing. that was 3rd string center trying to defend howard.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-13-2011, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,880,422 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
NOAH wasnt even playing. that was 3rd string center trying to defend howard.
What are you referring to? I'm debating about a POSSIBLE matchup, between the 2011 Bulls and the 2009 Magic. Which is where the Howard-Noah matchup is coming into the discussion.

Last edited by Roman77; 07-13-2011 at 01:11 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-13-2011, 12:07 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,198,412 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
What are you referring to? I'm debating about a POSSIBLE matchup, between the 2011 Bulls and the 2009 Magic. Which is where the Howard-Yao matchup is coming into the discussion.
i am referring to the video posted, you quoted it speaking of howards physicality over noah. i think the fact that the video is howard "posterizing" a mavs 3rd string player doesnt show much of the other posters argument. kinda funny actually.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-13-2011, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,880,422 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
i am referring to the video posted, you quoted it speaking of howards physicality over noah. i think the fact that the video is howard "posterizing" a mavs 3rd string player doesnt show much of the other posters argument. kinda funny actually.
Oh ok..... wasn't following you there for a sec..also that should have been 'Howard-Noah' matchup above, not 'Howard-Yao'....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-13-2011, 01:17 PM
 
2,838 posts, read 1,777,608 times
Reputation: 1243
Did i miss something Greg1977? We are talking purely hypothetical situations- which you got the ball rolling i might add- why spend a post and probably 30 minutes of your life questioning why the discussion is headed this way.

If Mo returns Baron Davis- I chalk that up as a win. If Shaq leaves I also chalk that up as a win- based on the style of play we lead with him in the lineup- not real conducive to James need to get uptempo. Delonte had to leave (soap opera stuff) he's still a guy that gets a return for you- what who knows? If Bosh doesn't want to go to Cleveland big deal- it just goes to show you- Cavs management reached out to him- I would think plan B, C, D, E would involve some kind of commitment to a decent player if you are going after a guy like Bosh. I maintain really how much would the Cavs have to improve to beat the Bulls AGAIN. You are right- no basis for a solid argument here, but when you say the 10-11 Bulls are basically walking over (not your exact words) the 09-10 Cavs- to argue that point all we have is the 09-10 Cavs beat the 09-10 Bulls soundly. So I'll entertain and play the what if game.

I'm objective with the Cavs. I also know the team probably more than 99% of the other posters on this forum. Lebron didn't win 66 and 61 games by himself, but NBA fans will claim the Cavs had a team full of DLeaguers with Lebron. Where's the support for that? For years I was yelling and screaming for Lebron to get a post game and generally play off the ball more- now I see Heat fans doing the same. You need a PG with a good handle and a playmaking mentality. Jason Kidd was brought up three years ago, Cavs fans dreamed of Chris Paul- heck Baron Davis would have made me happy. That's the one area where management failed the franchise and the fans.

Howard may miss his FTs but he puts the front line on the bench and now Derrick Rose needs to do it all himself and chase Nelson all over the court. We can argue all day but the 08-09 Magic team is a bad matchup for anyone.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-13-2011, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,880,422 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastbias View Post

Did i miss something Greg1977? We are talking purely hypothetical situations-

Not entirely true. I'm taking the actual 2010 version of the Cavs, and matching them against the actual 2011 version of the Bulls. Based on those rosters, I'm weighing them against each other. YES, they never met, but at least you can look at the teams and form an opinion.

You, on the other hand, are basing your arguments on who the Cavs COULD have gotten, bringing up points like 'what if you swap Howard for Lebron?' You're dreaming up scenarios and I'm taking the ACTUAL versions of the teams in question, and comparing them. How can you possibly make an argument based on what the 2011 Cavs MIGHT have been, IF they had Lebron, and IF this, and IF that....do you not see the difference?



why spend a post and probably 30 minutes of your life questioning why the discussion is headed this way.

Took me ten... I'm type fast.

If Mo returns Baron Davis

If......

If Shaq leaves

If....

If Bosh....

IF. You get where I'm going with that?


when you say the 10-11 Bulls are basically walking over (not your exact words) the 09-10 Cavs

Didn't say that- at all. I said I think the 2011 Bulls shut the 2010 Cav down defensively, I'm not suggesting they sweep them or anything to that nature. But I do think they'd win in a hard fought contest, if I had to put money on it.

We can argue all day

We won't- I don't agree. That concludes my role in this discussion. With due respect, I've got a very big debate going on a different thread and won't be investing that kind of energy on this particular conversation.

Reply in bold
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-13-2011, 02:16 PM
 
2,838 posts, read 1,777,608 times
Reputation: 1243
Howard for Lebron is what the Heat should do- not what the Cavs could have done. I think it makes the Heat a stronger team.

If the Cavs '10 team was the Cavs '11 team (no changes take place)- I feel the Bulls lose but make it a better series- so on to arguing something else.

Cavs change the next year...

Mo did return Baron- so no "If" there. We also landed Irving- Thank you ping pong balls, Chris Grant and Dan Gilbert for taking on Baron's salary.

Shaq was out of here even if Lebron returned- "if"?

If Bosh?- Never cared for the guy- would I take him? Sure. - did you read what i said before- I didn't think the Cavs needed him to win the East and certainly not to beat Chicago.

I'll conclude my role in the discussion- as I see this is going nowhere. The 10 Cavs vs. the 11 Bulls comes down to this- does Boozer and the '10 Bulls cast with a little improvement in their game (minus Noah whose best 5 game stretch was the 2010 playoff series against the Cavs) swing the series. A series the Cavs owned in 2010. Its clear from our discussion you think the Cavs weren't getting better so I guess why entertain the hypotheticals.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top