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Old 07-15-2011, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,948,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
while speaking of the 1st video, you said "here are the highlights" this implying they where the same game
The first video I stated "As for Omar Asik, close your eyes if you are a fan of his...". No reference of a game even in question at that point. The second video I stated "Here are the highlights" referring to a game which was being discussed where Dwight Howard score 40 points on Bulls players. I never implied that both clips came from the same game. The clips themselves even show you that as they are on different courts.

Quote:
once again i ask how do you know boozer guarded him 20+ minutes? your math doesnt add up, if boozer (a power forward) guarded him 20+ then that means kurts 25 minutes, taj 17 minutes, and asiks 17 minutes went more towards guarding hedo and bass?
Not sure why you point out Boozer as a PF... Note Gibson is one too.

What we know from the highlight clip (i.e. FACT)
Boozer guarded at least 2 min in the second
Thomas guarded sometime in the first
Asik guarded him in the second half.
Gibson nowhere to be seen near Howard. (Gibson has never guarded Howard 1-on-1, he has only ever played Help on him. He has always been assigned to either Bass/Anderson/any other person at the PF spot we might have had on the floor.)

Howard was on the bench for approx 6 minutes

So let's factor realistic numbers for your side of the argument:
Asik 16 minutes (that was his PT), Thomas 18 minutes (account for Howard bench time)... making Boozer a total of 8 minutes. You got me... shucks. Still doesn't make it any less that Boozer was dominated.

Back to original claim, everyone but Noah was there.

Quote:
not them in particular but on another thread you argued till blue in the screen that the bigs today are same level as they where back then yet every other argument contradicts that.
I did. I still stand by it. That argument is done and over. I brought up the comment because the other side of the argument claimed the bigs were no longer good, yet I saw in this thread something that condradicted that statement from the other thread; thus the post. The context in which I wrote the post did not factor in any opinion I had on those guys. Even with Noah, I never gave an opinion of how good or not good of a defender he is. I only stated how he plays Howard.

Quote:
this has no bearing on me, im not a d rose fan. rose has ridiculous hype from the media. that has nothing to do with this conversation. i said i think YOU are over rating howard. there are plenty of players out there who are over rated by the media and the fans, howard is your over rate.
You stated your opinion of how overrated you felt Howard is. That's your opinion, just like what I stated. I personally feel he is isn't overrated. He dominates his competition with his "limited" offensive moves and teams have to employee a system to handle him during games; the only person I have ever seen this happen to is the one Shaquille O'Neal. We don't need to rehash that.

Quote:
i say the player i defend as hard as you is underrated in tim duncan. good luck with bringing him down lol.

Everyone claims Tim Duncan is one of the best to ever play PF. How is there anything underrated about that?
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:49 AM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,205,971 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
The first video I stated "As for Omar Asik, close your eyes if you are a fan of his...". No reference of a game even in question at that point. The second video I stated "Here are the highlights" referring to a game which was being discussed where Dwight Howard score 40 points on Bulls players. I never implied that both clips came from the same game. The clips themselves even show you that as they are on different courts.

as i stated before i came in late, if i missed something i will admit that, BUT in your post you talk abotu how howard dominates the bulls, then post a video, then later post a video claiming highlights (highlights of his obvious best game but not the same game as before)

Not sure why you point out Boozer as a PF... Note Gibson is one too.

What we know from the highlight clip (i.e. FACT)
Boozer guarded at least 2 min in the second
Thomas guarded sometime in the first
Asik guarded him in the second half.
Gibson nowhere to be seen near Howard. (Gibson has never guarded Howard 1-on-1, he has only ever played Help on him. He has always been assigned to either Bass/Anderson/any other person at the PF spot we might have had on the floor.)

Howard was on the bench for approx 6 minutes

So let's factor realistic numbers for your side of the argument:
Asik 16 minutes (that was his PT), Thomas 18 minutes (account for Howard bench time)... making Boozer a total of 8 minutes. You got me... shucks. Still doesn't make it any less that Boozer was dominated.

not sure why you take the 6 minutes out of thomas's time, why would you think thomas would be in the game any more then to guard solely howard? their best defender vs the magics best offender? makes no sense. (i am seeing a lot of "makes no sense" around here)

Back to original claim, everyone but Noah was there.


I did. I still stand by it. That argument is done and over. I brought up the comment because the other side of the argument claimed the bigs were no longer good, yet I saw in this thread something that condradicted that statement from the other thread; thus the post. The context in which I wrote the post did not factor in any opinion I had on those guys. Even with Noah, I never gave an opinion of how good or not good of a defender he is. I only stated how he plays Howard.

done and over, but still wrong.


You stated your opinion of how overrated you felt Howard is. That's your opinion, just like what I stated. I personally feel he is isn't overrated. He dominates his competition with his "limited" offensive moves and teams have to employee a system to handle him during games; the only person I have ever seen this happen to is the one Shaquille O'Neal. We don't need to rehash that.

NO! i never said he was over rated, i said YOU over rate him. you are one of VERY FEW who believe he is actually superman apparently. never said he is over rated by anyone but you. sure that might be my oppinion BUT there are obviously others around here who agree, i would bet there are MANY others outside of here that would also agree.

Everyone claims Tim Duncan is one of the best to ever play PF. How is there anything underrated about that?
and to the duncan talk, there are actually a lot of people who consider him underrated, even though they will say he is the best PF ever. some say his game is so underrated that he is better then JUST the best PF.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 2,600,771 times
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Quote:
I am truly starting to feel bad for Lebron for the level of disdain aimed at him..
When I think about what LeBron James must endure on a daily basis, my life doesn't seem so bad.
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Old 07-15-2011, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,883,792 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
I did. I still stand by it. That argument is done and over. I brought up the comment because the other side of the argument claimed the bigs were no longer good, yet I saw in this thread something that condradicted that statement from the other thread; thus the post. The context in which I wrote the post did not factor in any opinion I had on those guys. Even with Noah, I never gave an opinion of how good or not good of a defender he is. I only stated how he plays Howard.

I've been quite content to let someone else argue endlessly with you for a while( sorry Rigas ) but this needs to be said:

I have never claimed the bigs of today to be 'no longer' good. What I did say is that competition at the center spot is not as good as the 90's. That comment doesn't translate to 'this generation's era sucks'. Particularly in the upper echelon, you can't make any plausible argument that Dwight Howard has any competition comparable to Hakeem Olajuwan, Shaquille Oneal, Dikembe Mutombo, Ewing, Mourning which are guys David Robinson faced all in their primes. THAT was my point. Who are the upper echelon centers today? Howard......who else? Yao is retired now..... Bynum? Can't stay healthy, and even when he is isn't better than a prime Alonzo Mourning, forget about him touching Shaq/Hakeem/Ewing. Bogut, Hibbert, etc etc and more etc? Noah, fine young talent.... but come on now.... these guys are VASTLY inferior to the best 90's centers, and those guys are the ones who are the 'best' competition for Dwight today.

You can make a case that the 'average' big today is comparable to the 'average' big in the 90's, but in the upper echelon levels, it's not close. And I know that you know this. In the mid 90's, David Robinson would have played Hakeem 4 times a year, Shaq( in Orlando) 2 times a season and then 4 times a season when he joined the Lakers, Ewing 2 times a year, Mourning 2 times a year, Mutumbo ( in Denver) 4 times a year. That's MULTIPLE encounters against centers who are generally considered among the best to ever play. How many encounters does Dwight have in a season nowadays, against that level of competition? The answer? ZERO....because there's no-one playing today, ON that level at the center spot.

So no, there's no contradiction except the ones you create in your own head to make whatever argument you think you're making. I never claimed that Howard would be stopped by Noah, Asik, Gibson, Boozer. But the Bulls are one of the few teams with enough bigs to throw at Howard. THAT'S WHAT I MEANT. And when I say quality size, relative to this era, those aren't bad players. Asik provides good minutes in his role, Gibson provides defense, hustle and energy, and Noah is one of the best rebounders and shotblockers in the league. The Bulls have size.....that's one of their strengths. And size is something you'll need when you're facing a guy like Howard who has, more than anything, the overwhelming athletic advantage every night. How those guys compare to the 90's centers, especially the star ones, is irrelevant to the discussion of them matching up against Howard.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:27 PM
 
2,840 posts, read 1,782,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I never claimed that Howard would be stopped by Noah, Asik, Gibson, Boozer. But the Bulls are one of the few teams with enough bigs to throw at Howard. THAT'S WHAT I MEANT. And when I say quality size, relative to this era, those aren't bad players. Asik provides good minutes in his role, Gibson provides defense, hustle and energy, and Noah is one of the best rebounders and shotblockers in the league. The Bulls have size.....that's one of their strengths. And size is something you'll need when you're facing a guy like Howard who has, more than anything, the overwhelming athletic advantage every night. How those guys compare to the 90's centers, especially the star ones, is irrelevant to the discussion of them matching up against Howard.

Let's face it these four guys (Noah, Asik, Gibson, Boozer) especially the last three guys would be a small speed bump for Howard. Sure the Bulls frontcourt can collect fouls- so can the Bucks, Kings, Cavs, etc. Gibson weighs what 225? Asik is stiff and Boozer is a matador. How does Gibson wrap up Howard and send him to line for two? Howard would get his two and go to the line for 1.

The Bulls have Derrick Rose to combat Howard. Rose would need to penetrate and get Howard in foul trouble- and even that strategy will result in a few block shots and turnovers.

The Bulls strength is Rose- their head coach is rising up the charts as well.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,883,792 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastbias View Post
Let's face it these four guys (Noah, Asik, Gibson, Boozer) especially the last three guys would be a small speed bump for Howard.
Slight overstatement. Again the idea isn't to stop outright, contain or at least make him work for what he gets. I suspect we're somewhere between me underestimating Howard and you overstating Howard's dominance. You'll have to excuse me, after watching guys like Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson in their prime, I'm just not as impressed with Howard as you may be.

Last edited by Roman77; 07-15-2011 at 12:41 PM..
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,948,333 times
Reputation: 1357
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
not sure why you take the 6 minutes out of thomas's time, why would you think thomas would be in the game any more then to guard solely howard? their best defender vs the magics best offender? makes no sense. (i am seeing a lot of "makes no sense" around here)
Simple. Let me ask you this question: Why would I decide to pull my center out of the game because the other team pulled their center out of the game? They wouldn't because they would need them to guard the next center entering the game if they weren't tired yet.

Quote:
NO! i never said he was over rated, i said YOU over rate him. you are one of VERY FEW who believe he is actually superman apparently. never said he is over rated by anyone but you. sure that might be my oppinion BUT there are obviously others around here who agree, i would bet there are MANY others outside of here that would also agree.

You have said it in so many words, even stating it again in your post.

It goes both ways. People feel the same way I feel about Howard. For instance, the video I posted on the other thread where 2 ESPN guys said they though Howard was OVERALL better than Yao, even with Rose having his numbers off.

Quote:
and to the duncan talk, there are actually a lot of people who consider him underrated, even though they will say he is the best PF ever. some say his game is so underrated that he is better then JUST the best PF.
How can you be the "best" and underrated... that makes zero sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977
I have never claimed the bigs of today to be 'no longer' good.
You insinuate it more or less. You claim there are no "upper echelon" players today and that Howard "doesn't have competition." How does that not translate to the Centers today are at best "average", if not "no good"...

Quote:
I suspect we're somewhere between me underestimating Howard and you overstating Howard's dominance.
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:02 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,205,971 times
Reputation: 1982
teams pull players out to match up with opposing players nearly EVERY GAME. howard played a lot more minutes then thomas so it stands to reason thomas was put in for the sole purpose of guarding howard thus the bulk of his minutes would be dedicated to guarding just howard.

ahh yeah the espn guys who cant remember that yao had better numbers and all but dominanted howard every single H2H matchup? good call relying on them. hell legler said at the end of the 2009/10 season he expects dejuan blair to "LEAD THE LEAGUE IN REBOUNDING IN 3 YEARS" lmao.

many people believe tim duncan is not only the best PF ever but in the conversation of the best PLAYER. he is sometimes underrated in the "other" things he does. he was a consensus amazing defender, easily one of the top 10 ever, yet never won a DPOY, thats UNDERRATED!
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,883,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post



You insinuate it more or less. You claim there are no "upper echelon" players today and that Howard "doesn't have competition." How does that not translate to the Centers today are at best "average", if not "no good"...

No I didn't. I made my point clearly, the only thing I can't tell is if you deliberately misinterpret or you genuinely have comprehension issues. Either way, I said Howard's competition at the center position isn't the same as what David Robinson had. Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo are better than any center Howard faces in this era. You have no counter to that point, so you resort to plan b: twist and contorted words to suit your argument. Name one center near those guys to challenge Howard. I can wait.......

And yes, most centers today are average. And guys like Bynum, Bogut, would be decent at best in the 90's.
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Old 07-15-2011, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,948,333 times
Reputation: 1357
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
teams pull players out to match up with opposing players nearly EVERY GAME. howard played a lot more minutes then thomas so it stands to reason thomas was put in for the sole purpose of guarding howard thus the bulk of his minutes would be dedicated to guarding just howard.
They also still keep in a guy to play Center. Being that there is only two centers on roster (when Noah is out), deductive reasoning tells you one of the two has to play the position during the game or Boozer has to shift. Thomas was limited to the few minutes due to foul trouble, hence Asik playing 16 minutes. If not, they would have run with Thomas the whole game with Boozer stepping in that role when Thomas needed rest like when they played other teams while Noah was out.

Quote:
many people believe tim duncan is not only the best PF ever but in the conversation of the best PLAYER. he is sometimes underrated in the "other" things he does. he was a consensus amazing defender, easily one of the top 10 ever, yet never won a DPOY, thats UNDERRATED!
Let's see. He started during Mutombo finger wagging reign, then dealt with defensive beast Ben Wallace, and now has Superman. The 3 of them hold 9 of the titles. Is he really above their level of defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977
No I didn't. I made my point clearly, the only thing I can't tell is if you deliberately misinterpret or you genuinely have comprehension issues. Either way, I said Howard's competition at the center position isn't the same as what David Robinson had. Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo are better than any center Howard faces in this era. You have no counter to that point, so you resort to plan b: twist and contorted words to suit your argument. Name one center near those guys to challenge Howard. I can wait.......

And yes, most centers today are average. And guys like Bynum, Bogut, would be decent at best in the 90's.
And you wonder where the lost in translation comes from... you tell me you "didn't say it" yet then you say it at the bottom.

As for your inner statement, my stance has always been that Howard is that much more dominate then his competition. Though, I feel that there are still good/great big men other than Howard, i.e. Love, Griffin, Lopez, etc.
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