Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Howard for Lebron is what the Heat should do- not what the Cavs could have done. I think it makes the Heat a stronger team.
That's all fine and dandy. But this is what I'm attempting to figure out. This is your post:
"10-11 Cavs with Lebron better than 09-10 Cavs with Lebron? I'd say Yes, based on our owner and his sense of urgency and our pursuit of big names prior to Lebron bolting. Would we need to be better to defeat the Bulls? debatable and maybe No. I guess I'm not as high on the Bulls as you would hope. The Playoff Celts with a healthy Rondo would give them fits. Sadly, as much as I'm rooting against the Heat- I could see them working together better and beating the Bulls worse this next year. If they get Howard for Lebron- competitive basketball is over. Wade and Howard would be a lethal combo. The East as playoff time hit was bad this year.
If the Cavs '10 team was the Cavs '11 team (no changes take place)- I feel the Bulls lose but make it a better series- so on to arguing something else."
Here's where things get tricky. I have been trying to discuss with you, or so I thought, who wins out of a matchup between the 2011 Bulls, and the 2010 Cavs. In fact, your very first reply to me was a response to my statement that the 2011 Bulls would lock up the 2010 Cavs defensively.
In one single paragraph( above), you state the following:
1) 10-11 Cavs with Lebron better than 09-10 Cavs with Lebron. Ok cool, we're still in the ballpark here.
2) The playoff Celts with a healthy Rondo would give them fits. Whoa......steering slightly off-course. Cavs-Bulls, Bulls-Cavs, Chicago-Cleveland, Cleveland-Chicago. Trying to steer things back on course now...
3) You're rooting against the Heat. Uh.....ok. That's cool. Bulls-Cavs??
4) If they get Howard for Lebron. Phew.....now we're wayyyyyy out in left field. Why.....how.....where....what does this have to do with..........Bulls 2011-Cavs 2010? Never mind.....
5)Wade and Howard would be a lethal combo.Yeaahhhhh, but....Bulls 2011-Cavs 2010? Oh we're not talking about that anymore? Or are we? I'm not sure at this stage.
6)If the Cavs 2010 team was the 2011 team, they beat the Bulls but's a better series. OK , YES!!! We're back on point! We're flying now!
Mo did return Baron- so no "If" there.
Ok, let's play a fun game of IF for the next few posts. How do you know for sure that Mo is traded for Baron...here we go... IF Lebron stays?
We also landed Irving-
Yes.....because....... Lebron left. IF he had stayed........ speculating here...... The Cavs would not have had the first pick, therefore they wouldn't have been in a position to drart Irving??????
Shaq was out of here even if Lebron returned- "if"?
Was he? Don't know about that one. Is that definite? IF...here we go again...Lebron had stayed......was Shaq heading to Boston regardless?
If Bosh?- Never cared for the guy- would I take him? Sure. - did you read what i said before-
I may have... honestly after a while your points were blurring together... like the example I quoted from you above.
I'll conclude my role in the discussion- as I see this is going nowhere.
Which, when you went from talking about Bulls and Cavs..... to the Celts.... to you're rooting against the Heat......to Howard should be swapped for Lebron.....to Wade and Howard would be a lethal combo.....within the confines of one paragraph..... was the conclusion I reached.
The 10 Cavs vs. the 11 Bulls comes down to this- does Boozer and the '10 Bulls cast with a little improvement in their game (minus Noah whose best 5 game stretch was the 2010 playoff series against the Cavs) swing the series.
Ah....now we're cooking! 10 Cavs-11 Bulls. The Heat is on! No, not the Miami Heat, I don't want to confuse things further.
Its clear from our discussion you think the Cavs weren't getting better
I don't. If you take JUST the 2010 roster..... NO MOVES, free agent ones or trades..... I think they remain the same as the year before in terms of how 'good' they are. Now let's look at the 2011 Bulls. Rose made a QUANTUM leap this year. Noah is one of the best defensive rebounding centers in the game. Deng had a solid season. Boozer was brought in( not high on him but whatever)..... let's take THOSE elements on their own merits. Consider the giant leap they made defensively. Who wins? I say Bulls, you say Cavs. Cool..... our opinions differs. But at least NOW, we're debating on the same wavelength.
Do you think too much about what you are going to write rather than take a breath and try and comprehend what is written by other people? Could I have made it easier and placed ideas in new paragraphs- sure, but come on man.
But follow closely...The gist of the paragraph, The Cavs with Lebron in 10-11 and an Owner like Gilbert would be a better team and we played a game talking about potential moves with Lebron on board. But could the 09-10 Cavs beat the 10-11 Bulls straight up- you bet ya Nancy. (paragraph may have helped) Now let's break down the 4th seeded Bulls against other playoff teams- because IMO the Bulls were lucky this past season- they wouldn't beat a healthy Celtic team with Rondo, they didn't beat the Heat (with all the mess they had this season) and they won't beat the Heat moving forward (trust me I'm rooting for the Bulls)...and a big IF here...IF...IF they do a Howard for Lebron deal- the NHL sounds more appealing to me because IF there is a season the Heat will cut down the nets (no pun intended).
Do you think too much about what you are going to write rather than take a breath and try and comprehend what is written by other people?
Do I think too much? Certainly. But my replies are never written before I at least THINK I have an idea of what the person is saying. I think the more appropriate question is, did YOU take a breath when you were writing that paragraph, or did you just write the first 5 things that came to mind, and left it up to me to decode the message?
Could I have made it easier and placed ideas in new paragraphs- sure, but come on man.
Not to come off as lecturing but:
Yes you could have, you made at least 4 completely separate points in one paragraph. Points that, taken on their own, are certainly with merit. But the onus isn't on me to try to pick the bones out of a paragraph that has at least 4 separate things going on, try to make sense of it all, and craft a respectable reply.
Could I have taken the time to dissect and analyze each point on its own merits? Sure...but why is that on me? I think I've taken the time to make each of my points in their own paragraphs so that at least whether or not you agree, you can follow them clearly. It would be nice if you could do the same. Or not.... but don't then be surprised if I misinterpret you because you couldn't be bothered to craft separate paragraphs for each point. At the least you acknowledge that you could have written it more clearly.... so I guess there's hope for future dialogue.
But could the 09-10 Cavs beat the 10-11 Bulls straight up- you bet ya Nancy.
I guess it depends. Is the Lebron with the 'elbow injury' that went MIA against Boston the version playing the 2011 Bulls?
IF they do a Howard for Lebron deal-
Genuine question: Is there a rumor going on about this? Or is this something you're just bringing up for 'whatever' reason. Because I haven't heard anything about this.
i am referring to the video posted, you quoted it speaking of howards physicality over noah. i think the fact that the video is howard "posterizing" a mavs 3rd string player doesnt show much of the other posters argument. kinda funny actually.
Greg's comment stated Bulls have quality bigs now for Howard. The guys that typically guard Howard are Noah AND Asik. Last I checked Asik was posterized (he is #3) and still is on the Bulls roster. It was more of a statement that neither Bulls option can stop Howard, even back in 08-09.
Quote:
NOAH wasnt even playing. that was 3rd string center trying to defend howard.
Yes Noah wasn't there to accept the beating handed that night by Howard. However, Boozer and Asik sure were. Granted Asik didn't play many minutes at that point (must be the fouls ). Reminder Boozer, a starter i.e. not a 3rd string player, mostly guarded him.
Rigas, I'm forgetting that I have to really break it down for some posters( not you). I'm not saying that individually, Noah, Asik, Gibson, Boozer, are capable of stopping Howard. What I am saying is that effectively, that's 24 fouls. I would employ the same strategy that people used against Shaq ten years ago, foul Howard and make him beat you at the line( let me clarify for Ncopus99, this is NOT a statement to say that Howard is as dominant as Shaq). And unlike those Lakers, there's no Kobe Bryant-like force behind Howard to pick up the offensive slack in crunch-time. So....stop Howard...no. But limit his effectiveness by using your bigs to send him at the line, where he's subpar.
Defensively, the Bulls were dobermans this year. Limit Howard by sending him to the line, or..... let him go off and clamp down on his supporting cast. Let's not also forget, that we're talking about the 09 Magic playing the 11 Bulls in this context. 09 Howard was still raw offensively back then, so it's safe to say he'd have a harder time against the 2011 Bulls bigmen then, compared to the 2011 Howard who has shown some improvement offensively after 2010 summer sessions with Hakeem. The 2011 Bulls are one of the few teams with the size to at least make Howard work, and again, this is 09 Howard we're talking here. He wasn't the player then, that he is now. The 2011 Bulls also had guys who can cover the perimeter ( Taj Gibson, Deng, Bogans, Brewer) and make guys like Rashard Lewis and Turkaglo work. Frankly I'm not sure who comes out on top, but I wanted to clarify my points regarding the 2011 Bulls bigs matching up against 2009 Howard.
Greg's comment stated Bulls have quality bigs now for Howard. The guys that typically guard Howard are Noah AND Asik. Last I checked Asik was posterized (he is #3) and still is on the Bulls roster. It was more of a statement that neither Bulls option can stop Howard, even back in 08-09.
Yes Noah wasn't there to accept the beating handed that night by Howard. However, Boozer and Asik sure were. Granted Asik didn't play many minutes at that point (must be the fouls ). Reminder Boozer, a starter i.e. not a 3rd string player, mostly guarded him.
Exuse me, I guess I had mavs on the brain with all the espy and stuff.
Now asik is a big guy, but he was a rookie averaging 12 minutes per game. 7 yr vet Howard dunking on a rookie who comes off the bench to spell winded players isn't exactly bragging material. As for boozer, 1) he was not exactly guarding Howard, and 2) he has never been accused of playing defense. Now then dent did try to strip hhoward as he passed so I guess that counts as getting dunked on. Oh and boguns ran past him but was kinda close so him too. Oh wait, rose was on that end of the court so I guess he got it also. Damn Howard destroyed the whole team.
"I have to really break it down for some posters" Right back at ya.
"And unlike those Lakers, there's no Kobe Bryant-like force behind Howard to pick up the offensive slack in crunch-time." I'm not with you here. 08-09 they had plenty of ammo and it was clicking at the right time (maybe not big name guys) but guys like Nelson, Turk, Lewis (just to name a few because they had some bench guys shooting lights out too) were on from the outside- this is what made that team dangerous- you could collapse on Howard and it would spring a shooter open and they were swinging the ball well around the perimeter- and then they were hitting their shots especially against Boston and Cleveland. It was pick your poision and don't get caught in between- you either hammered Howard and hope he didn't also find the bucket or pass out quickly or method 2 you stayed glued to Turk and Lewis who were still hitting contested shots- and then Nelson just back from his shoulder injury was disrutping things with dribble penetration.
Your strategy of hack a Shaq D works if Howard isn't also filling the bucket- unfortunately I remember quite well both Garnett (in the Boston series) and AV (cleveland series)- both guys all NBA defenders- gave up a ton of foul and buckets (and 1's). The Cavs and Celts with a bevy of bigs threw the kitchen sink at him. Also, I might add Howard is better FT shooter than Shaq.
Boston (defending champs) and Cleveland (66 wins)- were no slouches- The 10-11 Bulls couldn't hang with this trio.
"09 Howard was still raw offensively back then" "He wasn't the player then, that he is now." Younger perhaps more explosive too? I think you could argue both ways, but really I don't think the Howard of 09 is that much different from the Howard of 11. One thing is apparent- his supporting cast was on fire in the 09 playoffs (aside form the Lakers series).
"I have to really break it down for some posters" Right back at ya.
"And unlike those Lakers, there's no Kobe Bryant-like force behind Howard to pick up the offensive slack in crunch-time." I'm not with you here. 08-09 they had plenty of ammo and it was clicking at the right time (maybe not big name guys) but guys like Nelson, Turk, Lewis (just to name a few because they had some bench guys shooting lights out too) were on from the outside- this is what made that team dangerous- you could collapse on Howard and it would spring a shooter open and they were swinging the ball well around the perimeter- and then they were hitting their shots especially against Boston and Cleveland. It was pick your poision and don't get caught in between- you either hammered Howard and hope he didn't also find the bucket or pass out quickly or method 2 you stayed glued to Turk and Lewis who were still hitting contested shots- and then Nelson just back from his shoulder injury was disrutping things with dribble penetration.
Your strategy of hack a Shaq D works if Howard isn't also filling the bucket- unfortunately I remember quite well both Garnett (in the Boston series) and AV (cleveland series)- both guys all NBA defenders- gave up a ton of foul and buckets (and 1's). The Cavs and Celts with a bevy of bigs threw the kitchen sink at him. Also, I might add Howard is better FT shooter than Shaq.
Boston (defending champs) and Cleveland (66 wins)- were no slouches- The 10-11 Bulls couldn't hang with this trio.
"09 Howard was still raw offensively back then" "He wasn't the player then, that he is now." Younger perhaps more explosive too? I think you could argue both ways, but really I don't think the Howard of 09 is that much different from the Howard of 11. One thing is apparent- his supporting cast was on fire in the 09 playoffs (aside form the Lakers series).
Actually I was talking about Ncopus99. I sense an attitude
Beyond that, not especially interested in this debate, or in dialogue with you. I disagree with your opinion, and after yesterday's little exchange, will not be investing the energy to respond to your points anymore. No hard feelings, I just don't care about this particular discussion *enough* to keep going back and forth over it. There are some dedicated Bulls fans who may care to respond to your claim that the 2011 Bulls couldn't hang with these teams. Have a word with Orangeish or Mathguy on your opinion on this year's Bulls team.
And a friendly word of advice, it's much easier to distinguish a poster's quote from your own reply if you make use of the 'quote' button, or at least as I do where I write a bold reply. For clarity's sake.. or not. Whatever...
"Beyond that, not especially interested in this debate, or in dialogue with you. I disagree with your opinion, and after yesterday's little exchange, will not be investing the energy to respond to your points anymore."
I get it- You are taking your talents to another thread.
As for boozer, 1) he was not exactly guarding Howard,
He did for a good portion of the game (20+ min).
Quote:
and 2) he has never been accused of playing defense.
Never said either way. I just mentioned him because you made it seem like everyone was out, which only Noah was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977
I'm not saying that individually, Noah, Asik, Gibson, Boozer, are capable of stopping Howard. What I am saying is that effectively, that's 24 fouls.
Tickle my fancy... If that is all you meant, how is that any different than the Hawks bigs, who you claimed weren't "quality"? There are four of them too and all capable of "hack a shaq".
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastbias
"09 Howard was still raw offensively back then" "He wasn't the player then, that he is now." Younger perhaps more explosive too? I think you could argue both ways, but really I don't think the Howard of 09 is that much different from the Howard of 11. One thing is apparent- his supporting cast was on fire in the 09 playoffs (aside form the Lakers series).
Totally agree. Howard's offensive game hasn't drastically changed in these 3 seasons as some believe.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
). Reminder Boozer, a starter i.e. not a 3rd string player, mostly guarded him.
