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Old 06-17-2011, 02:03 PM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,324,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
This entire tangent started off the premise that the cavs managed to put some talent around Lebron. The drop off in their record and subsequent play of the cavs and former Lebron teamates seems to indicate otherwise. No one has challenged my assertion about the other Cavs starters even be able to start on decent NBA teams. (That's pretty telling)

I'm "dogging" on Cleveland for presenting actual facts and statistics and clearly supporting my opinions? Their owner is looking stupid with his pissing contest with The Jerk and other than lucking into Lebron in a no-brainer draft 8 years ago Cleveland has not made a good move with their franchise in a decade or more. I don't hate them, it's just common sense that they are probably one of the 5 worst run franchises in the NBA. (They are better runner than the Knicks)

FYI- You could take Dirk off the Mavs or Rose off the Bulls and still make the playoffs in the east. When Jordan retired the Bulls still made it to the ECF....just saying.
So if there was no talent around LeBron, just how did the Cavs earn the best record in the NBA 2 years in a row?

The drop off in their record can also be attributed to players leaving and injuries.

FYI, when the Spurs lost Duncan due to injury before the playoffs, they got owned by the Suns.
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
3,844 posts, read 8,030,215 times
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^Exactly. Not to mention, generally when a team loses a top player they can usually get equal or younger talent generally through trade. Cleveland was left with a huge hole to fill with no compensation.

So what's worse than losing Lebron? Getting absolutely nothing for him to help fill the void.

We'll see how their draft goes now with Cleveland getting the #1 and #4 picks next week.
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:35 PM
 
9,029 posts, read 16,430,940 times
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the east doesn't really have any quality depth - it's top heavy, but not that hard to perform in

the cavs are really poorly run and gilbert is a clown - they are a few years from being the timberwolves

how did the cavs get the NBAs best record for 2 years in a row? - because they had the MVP of the league

when the MVP left it definitely exposed the team and showed just how vital he was to the success of not only the team, but to those individuals as well
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:41 PM
 
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also the suns did beat the spurs in the playoffs - but duncan did play in the playoffs and played fairly well .... the got to the 2nd round and in the 10 playoff games he played 37 minutes, shot 52% from the field and put up 19 & 10 on average
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:44 PM
 
2,113 posts, read 2,324,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
also the suns did beat the spurs in the playoffs - but duncan did play in the playoffs and played fairly well .... the got to the 2nd round and in the 10 playoff games he played 37 minutes, shot 52% from the field and put up 19 & 10 on average
You are talking about a different season. I am referring to the year that Duncan did not play in the playoffs.
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:01 PM
 
9,029 posts, read 16,430,940 times
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Probably i'm talking about the playoffs before this season (last spring) - the suns made the WCF, they beat the spurs in the 2nd round - duncan played every single game

Looks like you are going all the way back to 99-00, which was the last time the suns beat the spurs in the playoffs .... it was the year after the spurs won the title and they lost duncan in april, also lost my man malik rose and not so much my man jerome kersey

that suns team won 53 games that year and were pretty formidable (same amount of wins as the spurs) and that was with jason kidd sitting out a month ....... when that series ended they had a front court of david robinson & samaki walker to go up against rodney rodgers, shawn marion, cliff robinson, et al

I also wouldn't say they were smoked - it was a 5 game series that went 3-1 and in one of those games the spurs blew a double digit 4th quarter lead

but even with out duncan they played like a competative playoff team
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
478 posts, read 595,276 times
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The Cavs had other talent besides Lebron. Andy V is a good defender and energy player. Daniel Gibson can shoot the 3 at a high percentage. Antawn can score the ball. Mo could score the ball. Delonte could score the ball, but he was dealing with some problems his last year in Cleveland. Anthony Parker is another guy who could shoot the three at high percentage. JJ Hickson is a nice young talented Power Foward, look at his rebound numbers the second half of the year. They never really utilized Shaq imho. The only thing the Cavs were ever lacking was that second go to scorer, crunch time guy. They had other guys who could score, but no other legit threat. They had Lebron and a good supporting cast. And I think its too early to say that the Cavs are a poorly run team. Dan Gilbert's only owned them since 2005, and most of the moves they ever made were to please Lebron, to which he signed off on most of the moves they made. The bad ones were signing Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall, and Damon Jones. They also traded first round picks early on for guys I can't even remember. But look at the team Lebron plays with now. Theres him, Wade, and Bosh. But the supporting cast isn't good. They had UD, Mike Miller, Z, Eric Dampier, Joel Anthony, James Jones, Mike Bibby, Juwan Howard, and Mario Chalmers. We'll see where the Cavs end up, they have the 1 and 4 picks this draft. Worst case scenario is thier in the lottery again next year, and It looks like next years draft could be pretty good. Also, yeah the Cavs had a bad year last year after losing Lebron, but take a look at alot of other teams. Take these guys off these teams and how good would they be. The Bulls without D. Rose? Magic without Dwight Howard? Hornets without Chris Paul? On another note Gilbert should probably not say anything more, but the fans? The way Lebron dissed the city on national television and not telling the Cavs organization first that he was going to be leaving. Its not like Cleveland sports fans are gonna root and cheer for the guy. What the Cavs should've done is traded Lebron. If a player doesn't commit than trade them, and now teams see that. Like when the Jazz traded Deron Williams.
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,946,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cindy_Jole View Post
So if there was no talent around LeBron, just how did the Cavs earn the best record in the NBA 2 years in a row?
1 person = Lebron James. He gave guys open shots. It's why he made the finals with a great record this year too.

Quote:
The drop off in their record can also be attributed to players leaving and injuries.
That's a joke. Varejo is the only one who lost significant time and he is garbage. Players leaving... Only two left (not named Lebron): Shaq. Did I just hear he retired because he is too old and past due? Oh yeah I did. Big Z. Did he lose playing time to Joel Anthony, a guy who was what 3rd on the depth chart last year? Oh yeah he did. Is he past due for retirement? Of course. West was cut. Williams was traded, then traded again.

The top 4 scorers, only one missed more than 1-2 games. And that guy, Jamison, still played in 3/4 of them. Interesting fact: 2 of them didn't play with Lebron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by costello_musicman
^Exactly. Not to mention, generally when a team loses a top player they can usually get equal or younger talent generally through trade. Cleveland was left with a huge hole to fill with no compensation.

So what's worse than losing Lebron? Getting absolutely nothing for him to help fill the void.
When my team (Magic) lost Shaq, we got nothing from it. You know what happened... we still made the playoffs. Why? Because Shaq had good players to work with. Something Lebron didn't have.

I can't believe people can try and back up this terrible argument.
Drafting Lebron brought in wins, Subtracting Lebron 7 years later lost 40+ wins. It is really is that simple. An Aged Shaq and Z did not provide as much to that success as you might think. Neither did Varejo's 8 PPG + flopping. Heck, Shaq wasn't on the team when they did the first 60+ win season.

Quote:
We'll see how their draft goes now with Cleveland getting the #1 and #4 picks next week.
Being that it is a weak draft, all signs point that the Cavs still wont be good. Kyrie Irving, most likely the first pick, will bust. Guaranteed. He didn't play the majority of the season and played in a system with plenty of screens, mixed with playing with a Neismith finalist, Nolan Smith, and pre-season ACC Player of the Year, Kyle Singler. Just look at all the Duke players (outside Grant Hill, Elton Brand, and Carlos Boozer) and what have they have accomplished... they are a bunch of bench players/ players cut. Coach K system doesn't help players translate from college to NBA.

If the Cavs want to be good, they will have to move one of the picks for a quality role player and try and get something good by trading Hickson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 719inhere
The Bulls without D. Rose? Magic without Dwight Howard? Hornets without Chris Paul?
Bulls still makes playoffs with a 50+ win season.
Magic is a big ??? since whole offense revolves around dishing into Howard and shooting 3s. With him gone, the team still makes playoffs.
Hornets - we will see it this offseason. I believe Paul gets dealt. I don't see that team enough to make a play on how they do post Paul.

Last edited by ncopus99; 06-17-2011 at 04:38 PM..
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
478 posts, read 595,276 times
Reputation: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
1 person = Lebron James. He gave guys open shots. It's why he made the finals with a great record this year too.


That's a joke. Varejo is the only one who lost significant time and he is garbage. Players leaving... Only two left (not named Lebron): Shaq. Did I just hear he retired because he is too old and past due? Oh yeah I did. Big Z. Did he lose playing time to Joel Anthony, a guy who was what 3rd on the depth chart last year? Oh yeah he did. Is he past due for retirement? Of course. West was cut. Williams was traded, then traded again.

The top 4 scorers, only one missed more than 1-2 games. And that guy, Jamison, still played in 3/4 of them. Interesting fact: 2 of them didn't play with Lebron.



When my team (Magic) lost Shaq, we got nothing from it. You know what happened... we still made the playoffs. Why? Because Shaq had good players to work with. Something Lebron didn't have.

I can't believe people can try and back up this terrible argument.
Drafting Lebron brought in wins, Subtracting Lebron 7 years later lost 40+ wins. It is really is that simple. An Aged Shaq and Z did not provide as much to that success as you might think. Neither did Varejo's 8 PPG + flopping. Heck, Shaq wasn't on the team when they did the first 60+ win season.



Being that it is a weak draft, all signs point that the Cavs still wont be good. Kyrie Irving, most likely the first pick, will bust. Guaranteed. He didn't play the majority of the season and played in a system with plenty of screens, mixed with playing with a Neismith finalist, Nolan Smith, and pre-season ACC Player of the Year, Kyle Singler. Just look at all the Duke players (outside Grant Hill, Elton Brand, and Carlos Boozer) and what have they have accomplished... they are a bunch of bench players/ players cut. Coach K system doesn't help players translate from college to NBA.

If the Cavs want to be good, they will have to move one of the picks for a quality role player and try and get something good by trading Hickson.
You can see into the future and know for sure that Kyrie Irving will be a bust? Even if the Cavs are bad again next year, that would put them in the lottery again. Next year theres gonna be guys like Harrison Barnes and Jared Sullinger.
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Old 06-17-2011, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,946,077 times
Reputation: 1357
Quote:
Originally Posted by 719inhere View Post
You can see into the future and know for sure that Kyrie Irving will be a bust? Even if the Cavs are bad again next year, that would put them in the lottery again. Next year theres gonna be guys like Harrison Barnes and Jared Sullinger.
Tell me I am wrong if he shows up (i.e. near end of season) next year on that Cavs team.

Just a reminder...Duke History since 2000
Chris Carrawell (2000) - cut; never played
Shane Battier (2001) - backup for Memphis (lost his starting job midseason)
Jay Williams (2001) - average before accident, after it he was no good and cut
Mike Dunleavy (2002) - lost his starting job, most likely on his way to being cut
Carlos Boozer (2002) - +1
Dahnty Jones (2003) - doesn't dress in Boston
Luol Deng (2004) - + 1
Chris Duhon (2004) - doesn't dress in Orlando
Daniel Ewing (2005) - cut
Sheldon Williams (2006) - doesn't dress in NY
JJ Redick (2006) - backup in Orlando
Josh McRoberts (2007) - backup in Indiana
Gerald Henderson (2009) - backup prior to trade of Wallace, most likely will resume that role later; he hasn't done decent enough IMO to warrant a "+1"

So only 2 panned out (of 13) into more than a bench player/ cut... Note the majority of these picks were Top 10. Boozer, one of the +1, was actually a second round pick.

But yes, if they do make the following year with a top pick, Sullinger and Barnes have potential to be great.
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