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Old 06-15-2011, 05:25 PM
 
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:27 PM
 
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Lebron is no Scottie. Scottie knew his role very well at all times and when Jordan retires Scottie stepped it up and became the man on the Bulls DEMANDING the ball at the end of the game. He took an even WORSE team than the Cavs had to a Game 7 vs the Knicks.

Scottie was also a TENACIOUS defender, something LEbum is not.
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Aside from being about the same size( Lebron's a little heavier), similar athletic ability( Lebron's more athletic overall), similar slashing ability, ability to defend positions 1-4, streaky jumpshot, ability to go coast to coast and make a play on the break, and essentially playing the point forward position??

Nothing at all, TVSG..... nothing at all.
*best Michael Buffer impression*
Scottie Pippen weighing in at 6'8 210 lbs.
Lebron James weighing in at 6'8 240 lbs.

30 lbs is a little heavier... sure... ok.
Muscle (James) vs Scrawny (Pippen) is pretty much what it is.

Pippen's total average: 16.1 pts, 6.4 reb, 5.2ast
James's total average: 27.7 pts, 7.1 reb, 7.0ast

By the way Pippen could never guard beyond the 3 position.
PS Neither guy is streaky. For streaky see guys like Gilbert Arenas then you will know what streaky is.
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Old 06-16-2011, 03:35 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
*best Michael Buffer impression*
Scottie Pippen weighing in at 6'8 210 lbs.
Lebron James weighing in at 6'8 240 lbs.

30 lbs is a little heavier... sure... ok.
Muscle (James) vs Scrawny (Pippen) is pretty much what it is.

Pippen's total average: 16.1 pts, 6.4 reb, 5.2ast
James's total average: 27.7 pts, 7.1 reb, 7.0ast

By the way Pippen could never guard beyond the 3 position.
PS Neither guy is streaky. For streaky see guys like Gilbert Arenas then you will know what streaky is.
I said similar size, with Lebron being heavier, did I not? I was referring moreso to height, perhaps I should have made that crystal clear. You do realize that someone was comparing Magic (6'9 220) and Drexler (6'7, 210) to Lebron, right?

Pippen was not scrawny, see some video from his prime. As big as Lebron? No. But Pippen in his prime had a very muscular build.

Listing averages is irrelevant to what I'm talking about here. I'm referring more to attributes that they shared. I never said they were a carbon copy, or that Scottie's stats matched him. And for the record, Scottie's averages were low at the beginning and end of his career. Obviously Lebron was an immediate impact player. During the championship years, Pip was averaging around 21 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, 2 steals, I block, and about 48% shooting. Scoring aside, the stats are close enough. And that was as a second banana to Jordan. Now perhaps I should clarify that I'm not suggesting that Pippen is as good overall as Lebron; I'm talking more to some similarities I see in their games, some commonalities.

By the way, Lebron doesn't often guard the 4 either, neither did Scottie. But I've seen each of them matched up on 4's on occassion. But if you wish to debate that point ad nauseum, the main thing I was getting at is they both have the ability to defend the 3 perimeter positions, with occasionally spotting the 4. And, I should add, Pippen was a better man to man defender, with the ability to full-court press all 3 perimeter positions very well.

PS If streaky means sometimes on, sometimes off, then their jumpshots are both streaky in my opinion. Unless streaky has some other meaning in this context that I'm unaware of. Perhaps you have the definition of streaky jumpshot? I googled it, funny enough I didn't see a clear definition. Kindly enlighten us then.
Though I will say, Lebron's jumpshot is probably better than Pippen's ever was.

Last edited by Roman77; 06-16-2011 at 04:25 AM..
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Old 06-16-2011, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Earth
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YouTube - ‪Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender‬‏


Note that Pippen is seen here matched against a number of notable power forwards: Chris Webber, Terry Cummings, Charles Barkley, Larry Johnson,

Heck, at the 2:17 mark, he straight up defended Patrick Ewing in the post AND disrupted his jumpshot.

And, just going off that video, I don't see how anyone can see this and not note the parallels between his and Lebron's prowess in the open-court.
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I said similar size, with Lebron being heavier, did I not? I was referring moreso to height, perhaps I should have made that crystal clear. You do realize that someone was comparing Magic (6'9 220) and Drexler (6'7, 210) to Lebron, right?
Comparing the game of those players. Lebron sets up teammates all the time with his dishes, hence the career average of 7ast/game. He has the accuracy like Magic. He dribbles/control on the ball like Magic. He can get to the hoop like Magic. Watch old Magic clips and compare them to Lebron. You will see fairly simliar stuff. Watching Pippen vs Lebron is watching two completely different players.

Quote:
And that was as a second banana to Jordan.
Lebron has to share the ball with another Top 5 NBA superstar and a Top 20 NBA superstar. Pippen ONLY had to share with Jordan.

Quote:
By the way, Lebron doesn't often guard the 4 either, neither did Scottie. But I've seen each of them matched up on 4's on occassion. But if you wish to debate that point ad nauseum, the main thing I was getting at is they both have the ability to defend the 3 perimeter positions, with occasionally spotting the 4.
You said they both can guard the 1-4. Now you are backtracking saying Pippen can guard the 3-4. James has guarded 1-4.

Quote:
And, I should add, Pippen was a better man to man defender,
Agreed. It's due to Lebron's style of defensive play. He is a like a safety in football; he goes where the play is.

Quote:
PS If streaky means sometimes on, sometimes off, then their jumpshots are both streaky in my opinion. Unless streaky has some other meaning in this context that I'm unaware of. Perhaps you have the definition of streaky jumpshot? I googled it, funny enough I didn't see a clear definition. Kindly enlighten us then.
Streaky is reflected in your shooting percentage. Being streaky means you have a good night, then a bad night, then a good night....

Having a shooting % of 50.1% on the season+playoffs shows no signs of this. In the whole playoffs, he only had 4 games with a shooting % less than 42%. The month going into the playoffs he was averaging almost 60%. Again no signs of streakiness.

I brought up Gilbert Arenas (a guy shooting 42% on career).
Take 2005 Post Season play against the Bulls.
Game 1: 3-19 15.8%
Game 2: 14-25 56%
Game 3: 10-24 41.7%
Game 4: 6-12 50%
Game 5: 5-14 35.7%
Game 6: 6-24 25%

Notice how he has 3 hot games in between 3 terrible games. This is being streaky.
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
Comparing the game of those players. Lebron sets up teammates all the time with his dishes, hence the career average of 7ast/game. He has the accuracy like Magic. He dribbles/control on the ball like Magic. He can get to the hoop like Magic. Watch old Magic clips and compare them to Lebron. You will see fairly simliar stuff. Watching Pippen vs Lebron is watching two completely different players.

Notice I didn't talk about Pippen's passing compared to Lebron? I was very specific to note the areas I saw them similar. And yet, you're here going on about passing. I know Lebron's passing skills are reminiscent of Magic to a degree. But since you want to talk about assist averages, Pippen was playing in the triangle offense, an offense that emphasizes ball movement. Lebron played in an offense that catered directly to him. And Pippen still managed to average 6-7 assists a game in his prime within the triangle. And this was with Jordan averaging 6 assists alongside him in the same offense. Open court ability, slashing ability, there are some similarities. Which is the point I was making.

But in terms of comparing Lebron and Magic's passing, Magic was more creative with his passing on the move. Lebron makes some nifty passes too, but many I find are from a standstill position. Magic was far more adept at finding passing angles and 'threading the needle' on the go , both in the open court and half court setting, and in that regard he's unique to both Lebron and Pippen. If I thought Pippen was a comparable passer to Lebron, I'd have argued the point. Did I? Nope. And passing is only one aspect of the game. Pippen's athletic abilities are far more on par with Lebron than Magic, which gives them comparable attributes in certain aspects of the game. Slashing?? The crux of Pippen's offensive skills revolved around slashing.Athletic finishes at the basket? Lebron and Pippen yes, Lebron and Magic not so much. And in particular, both Pippen and Lebron have an ability to turn a defensive stop into an open court offensive scenario. Magic really didn't, because Magic defensively wasn't stopping anyone. Magic was mainly a help defender.

Is Lebron a better passer. Absolutely. But let's not act like Pippen was some scrub passer.
Are you saying Pippen wasn't one heck of a playmaker in his own right? He was essentially the Bulls point guard. Not Jordan, not Paxson, Not B.J Armstrong, not Ron Harper. It was PIPPEN who initiated the Bulls triangle offense.

Asides from passing, Pippen and Lebron are more similar than Lebron and Magic. Offensively, defensively, and athletically. Ability to make plays in the open court, grabbing the rebound and going coast to coast, is a skill all three men possessed.


Lebron has to share the ball with another Top 5 NBA superstar and a Top 20 NBA superstar. Pippen ONLY had to share with Jordan.


Umm before this season, Lebron was not playing with Wade or Bosh. Are you deliberating making disingenuous arguments? Lebron for the VAST majority of his career had total carte blanche, until THIS last season. I'm pretty sure you know full-well that my comments would be referring to Lebron for the first 7 years out of an 8 year career. Again, clearly I'll need to be REALLY specific.

You said they both can guard the 1-4. Now you are backtracking saying Pippen can guard the 3-4. James has guarded 1-4.

Boy , comprehension mate. I never said Pippen can only guard 3-4. I said he can guard the 3 perimeter positions. Which would mean the point, shooting guard, and small forward. Those are ALL perimeter positions. I'll be sure to really spell it out next time. I mean, I just posted a video showing Pippen defending just about every position under the sun, in a variety of situations. Should I post another video?


Streaky is reflected in your shooting percentage. Being streaky means you have a good night, then a bad night, then a good night....

Oh, that's your definition. So you never heard of a streak shooter then? That means you can have a good night, then a bad night shooting. It means you can hit 5 in a row, then miss your next 5. Streaky. Which sums up Lebron's perimeter shooting. As it does Pippen's....

Having a shooting % of 50.1% on the season+playoffs shows no signs of this. In the whole playoffs, he only had 4 games with a shooting % less than 42%. The month going into the playoffs he was averaging almost 60%. Again no signs of streakiness.

So you're saying Lebron's shooting percentage doesn't take into account the amount of finishes he makes at the basket? If Lebron shot strictly jumpshots, without any ability to attack and finish at the rim, he wouldn't shoot 50%.
My replies in Bold.

Last edited by Roman77; 06-16-2011 at 09:14 AM..
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,469 posts, read 15,441,696 times
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From Amare Stoudamire, relating MJ to LBJ...

MJ connected with people, LeBron doesn't

“I think you have to conduct yourself in a way that people can relate to you,” said Stoudemire, who led the Knicks back to the playoffs this season after the team posted its first winning record (42-40) in 10 years. “The more they can relate to you, the more they will appreciate you.”

“Everybody has their own way of commenting on things, but I would have commented differently,” Stoudemire said. “One thing about Michael Jordan was that no matter how great he was and how much of a platform he stood on, he still related to all the hard workers out there in the world.

“I think LeBron is still young,” Stoudemire added, “and there is still time for him to reconnect with the public.”
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
But since you want to talk about assist averages, Pippen was playing in the triangle offense, an offense that emphasizes ball movement. Lebron played in an offense that catered directly to him. And Pippen still managed to average 6-7 assists a game in his prime within the triangle.
The Triangle gives players more opportunity for an assist since the ball is moving. With an offense built around you, you are double/triple which means you have to work harder to obtain that assist since you have to split defenders to make a play. Then you see this year in which he isn't the centerpiece and he still obtains the same. But you already knew that...

Quote:
But in terms of comparing Lebron and Magic's passing, Magic was more creative with his passing on the move. Lebron makes some nifty passes too, but many I find are from a standstill position.


He does everywhich way like Magic did. Here is an example:

YouTube - ‪LeBron James' Circus Assist‬‏

Quote:
But let's not act like Pippen was some scrub passer.

Never said he was. Though his passing ability was like any other NBA player.
Nothing special.

Quote:
Asides from passing, Pippen and Lebron are more similar than Lebron and Magic. Offensively, defensively, and athletically.

No, No, Yes. Offense - Magic always looked for the big play. This is what James does. The difference is Magic trusted his team more to make that big play for him where James takes it into his hands if a man doesn't get open. Defense - Magic played help which is how Lebron plays defense. Lebron has been critized in the past for it. He goes where the ball goes, alot of times leaving his man semi-open (see Jason Terry, i.e. the guy he guarded a good chunk, in the finals this year). Athletically - Lebron is super athletic which Magic was not. Pippen on the other hand was closer to him (nice vert) so I will give you that. Granted from that aspect, there are alot of better, comparable players to compare him to.

Quote:
So you're saying Lebron's shooting percentage doesn't take into account the amount of finishes he makes at the basket? If Lebron shot strictly jumpshots, without any ability to attack and finish at the rim, he wouldn't shoot 50%.


True but it's all relative. Lebron has a similiar mixture of shooting/dunking that both Kobe and Durant have, yet his percentage is higher. Does that make both Kobe and Durant streaky "jumpshot" shooters as well... again it's all relative.
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Old 06-16-2011, 01:24 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
The Triangle gives players more opportunity for an assist since the ball is moving. With an offense built around you, you are double/triple which means you have to work harder to obtain that assist since you have to split defenders to make a play. Then you see this year in which he isn't the centerpiece and he still obtains the same. But you already knew that...


The triangle offense isn't designed for any single player to amass great numbers of assists. If anyone can get 6-7 assists like Jordan and Pippen did in their day, it's probably because the offense was broken and they had to rely on their instinctive playmaking abilities. In an offense where you're double-tripled teamed, you only need to have decent enough passing skills and awareness to find the open man. After that the onus is on the receiver to hit shots. Which is why Cleveland surrounded Lebron with shooters: Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Delonte West, Bobbi Gibson. Heck you don't even have to split defenders: If Lebron is standing at the top of the key, the moment someone leaves their man to double him, Lebron really need only to have enough passing skills to find that man who was left open. This doesn't take Magic Johnson level passing, any point guard with respectable passing can do that. Lebron's a very good passer, but he played within an offense in Cleveland that was built specifically around him. In that scenario, he SHOULD be getting 7-8 assists a game. As for what he did in Miami, note that Wade who is normally good for 7 assists himself, had his average reduced to under 5 assists a game. And how many assists did the point guard for the Heat get? 2-3 a game at most. On the Heat, the point guard role is suitably to be spot up shooters, not primary playmakers. Once again, Lebron was given control of an offense to amass a decent number of assists. And with Wade and Bosh on his team, he had no reason NOT to amass high assist numbers.

Now think about when Pippen played with the Bulls. Who aside from Jordan was a major scoring threat? Kukoc? Grant? Cartwright? Wennington? Longley? Hodges? RODMAN? How does one average 6-7 assists a game like Pippen did, within an offense that doesn't allow for one player to dominate the ball, with few POTENT offensive options around him asides from Jordan? Kukoc was the only guy, aside from Jordan and Pippen, on ALL the Bulls championship squads who was offensively independent and able to create for himself.

In fact, the triangle offense is really designed to operate from the post. Which is why Phil Jackson described Shaquille Oneal as the ideal player to build the triangle around. But you already knew that....


He does everywhich way like Magic did. Here is an example:

YouTube - ‪LeBron James' Circus Assist‬‏


Ah, the old 'let me find a random video clip' trick. Magic's ability to pass accurately and creatively on the fastbreak/on the move was still better than Lebron's. I bet I can find a random video of Pippen throwing a behind the back pass too. Proves what, exactly? Although I will say, Magic had the personal on his team to have that fastbreaking style. But Lebron is far more likely to finish the play on his own on the fastbreak; Magic was more or less a lock to make a play for someone else, the only puzzle the defense had to figure out was WHO would be on the receiving end. Magic Johnson could make Kurt Rambis a threat to score on the break.



[/b]
Never said he was. Though his passing ability was like any other NBA player.
Nothing special.

That's your opinion. If his passing was nothing special, any tom, dick or harry could average 7 assists in a game. Pippen was a very good passer.

[/b]
No, No, Yes. Offense - Magic always looked for the big play. This is what James does. The difference is Magic trusted his team more to make that big play for him where James takes it into his hands if a man doesn't get open. Defense - Magic played help which is how Lebron plays defense. Lebron has been critized in the past for it. He goes where the ball goes, alot of times leaving his man semi-open (see Jason Terry, i.e. the guy he guarded a good chunk, in the finals this year). Athletically - Lebron is super athletic which Magic was not. Pippen on the other hand was closer to him (nice vert) so I will give you that. Granted from that aspect, there are alot of better, comparable players to compare him to.

The whole point about Magic looking for the big play...not sure what relevance it has to my argument so I won't expand the energy to reply. The point I was raising about their athleticism was to say that Lebron and Pippen's athleticism played a large part in their open-court abilities, slashing abilities, and ability to finish at the rim. The most accurate statement to be made in all of this, is Lebron, Pippen and Magic all shared certain characteristics. But in terms of offensive style( slashing/driving,streaky shooting), defensive versatility( ability to guard multiple positions) and athleticism( speed, jumping ability, quickness) Lebron and Pippen have more in common than Lebron and Magic. If you wish to bring other players into the fold for debate, I welcome it. But right now, I'm talking Lebron and Pippen.



True but it's all relative. Lebron has a similiar mixture of shooting/dunking that both Kobe and Durant have, yet his percentage is higher. Does that make both Kobe and Durant streaky "jumpshot" shooters as well... again it's all relative.

Uh Lebron is much better at finishing at the rim than Kobe and Durant, and you know this. Both of those guys are better jumpshooters. Last year, Durant shot 47%, Kobe has never shot a great, great percentage so that's neither here or there.But if you've watched Kobe Bryant the past few years, you'd know that his game is far more shooting than slashing at this stage, with a far greater number of 3 pointers taken, which is also part of why he shoots a lower percentage, AS WELL as not being as good a finisher as Lebron at the basket. Wade normally shoots 49% as well, with a streaky jumpshot. How?? Elite ability to finish at the rim. Hell, Tony Parker shoots 50%, is he a great jumshooter? Heck no.
Reply in bold.

Last edited by Roman77; 06-16-2011 at 02:09 PM..
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