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Old 07-18-2011, 11:36 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,892,729 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back to NE View Post
BS, Scottie Pippen was a better player than Jordan in every phase except scoring. .
?.....they're pretty much identical per game averages of stls, blocks, assists, rebs.
pippen being a forward and jordan being a guard also meant they'd have advantages in certain areas vs others like rebounds, steals etc.
jordan won dpoy 1x , pippen never did
to say pippen was a better player than jordan in every category except scoring implies pippen was a better all around player, which is absurd and false.
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC
3,849 posts, read 3,976,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
?.....they're pretty much identical per game averages of stls, blocks, assists, rebs.
pippen being a forward and jordan being a guard also meant they'd have advantages in certain areas vs others like rebounds, steals etc.
jordan won dpoy 1x , pippen never did
to say pippen was a better player than jordan in every category except scoring implies pippen was a better all around player, which is absurd and false.
Wrong conclusion, Jordan's big edge in scoring lets him eclipses Scottie overall. Never heard of weighted analysis?

And don't rely too much on stats, for instance, there have been a ton of terrible defenders over the years who get alot of steals.
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Old 07-19-2011, 01:51 PM
 
Location: So California
8,556 posts, read 8,891,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back to NE View Post
BS, Scottie Pippen was a better player than Jordan in every phase except scoring. He has always been underrated by people who wanted Jordan's star to shine as bright as possible. If Pippen is considered great, that would mean Jordan isn't as great.

That has been going on for years. It's like partisan politics, the Republican mentality (Jordan fans) have always been happy to denigrate everything else about the Bulls. Scott Pippen fans (like Democrats) are sophisticated and selfless like Scottie was.

Scottie was easily top 50 btw.

Thats absurd........republicans?democrats? you arent gaining any cred with that analogy.

Pippen was not capable of being the top dog on a team. Thats like saying James Worthy was better than Magic Johnson at everything but assists. There are so many intangibles that make a great player, great. Pippen was a good player on great teams, with one of the best players ever leading him to championships.
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
3,441 posts, read 5,007,224 times
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Can we please get back to the topic at hand?
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Here or There
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Default At least 1 of 2

One of those years, I cant remember which one, the Rockets win. The other one? Not sure. The year I think the Rockets would have won, Olajuwon was great, but the other guys were nailing shots that they just dont normally hit.

This year, despite everything, once they got in the playoffs, Dallas had that look--with the exception of the 24 point comeback by Portland in the first round. That is what that Houston team reminded me of--lots of guys were playing over their heads that year in the playoffs for the Rockets.
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Santa Ana
1,198 posts, read 2,050,950 times
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not only could have Michael Jordan gotten more than 6 rings, if Jordan had played consectutively all the way from his rookie year to his final retirement at age 40 with the Wizards in 2003, he could have broken Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's scoring record, Kareem played in 500 more games than Jordan did, and Jordan is only 3rd place on the NBA's all-time scoring list
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Old 09-12-2011, 02:25 AM
 
Location: Avondale, Chicago
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My favorite "homer" argument that can be backed up with statistical evidence. I will defend this until I'm dead - the Rockets were, and are, the rightful NBA champions of the 1993-94 and 1994-95 seasons, Jordan or not.

First, let's tackle 1994, since Jordan didn't play at all. Let's say Jordan decides to skip his baseball adventure and gets the Bulls to the Eastern Conference championship. He matches up against none other than Vernon Maxwell...

Vernon Maxwell vs. Michael Jordan | Basketball-Reference.com

...who, during his time with the Rockets from January 1991 through the end of the 1993 season, never had Jordan score more than 35 points on his watch. Out of six matchups, Jordan passed 30 points only three of those times and was consistently held below his average in 1992 and 1993.

While Maxwell outscored Jordan only once in this stretch (30 Jan 1992 in Houston, Maxwell with 23 and Jordan with 22) the spread was under 10 points in the last three meetings before MJ Retirement 1.0. And sure enough, the Rockets won all three games.

That's because, unlike in any other Finals series the Bulls played with Jordan, they did not have as much a matchup advantage at Jordan's position than the disadvantage they had at center against somebody like Hakeem Olajuwon. This gets glossed over in all the national media MJ worship, but the gap between Olajuwon and the Bill Cartwrights and the Luc Longleys of the world was greater than that between Jordan and Maxwell, or even Jordan vs. an aging Clyde Drexler in 1995.

In '95, Jordan came back, played in 17 regular season games before the Bulls began the playoffs. Now, the conventional wisdom in the "Bulls would've won!" mindset is Jordan was not at full tilt, still warming up after baseball didn't work out for him. His playoff stats, however, certainly betray this a bit much to be taken as gospel truth.

Fact: Michael Jordan averaged more points per game in the 1995 playoffs than he did in the next two years that yielded two more rings for the Bulls. He had the stamina to log 42 minutes a game in 10 playoff games, averaging 31.5 points compared to 30.7 in 18 games in 1996. His field goal percentage was higher than it was in the 1993, 1996 and 1997 playoffs. It's all right here. His 1995 playoff rebounds and assists average was also higher than it was the following year. By any statistical measure, Jordan performed better individually in the year the Bulls bowed out to the Magic in the second round.

They lost because they had no answer for Shaq, and Shaq was no answer for Hakeem in '95.

So, what's this "asterisk" business we're talking about here?
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Old 09-12-2011, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,883,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfre81 View Post
My favorite "homer" argument that can be backed up with statistical evidence. I will defend this until I'm dead - the Rockets were, and are, the rightful NBA champions of the 1993-94 and 1994-95 seasons, Jordan or not.

First, let's tackle 1994, since Jordan didn't play at all. Let's say Jordan decides to skip his baseball adventure and gets the Bulls to the Eastern Conference championship. He matches up against none other than Vernon Maxwell...

Vernon Maxwell vs. Michael Jordan | Basketball-Reference.com

...who, during his time with the Rockets from January 1991 through the end of the 1993 season, never had Jordan score more than 35 points on his watch. Out of six matchups, Jordan passed 30 points only three of those times and was consistently held below his average in 1992 and 1993.

While Maxwell outscored Jordan only once in this stretch (30 Jan 1992 in Houston, Maxwell with 23 and Jordan with 22) the spread was under 10 points in the last three meetings before MJ Retirement 1.0. And sure enough, the Rockets won all three games.

That's because, unlike in any other Finals series the Bulls played with Jordan, they did not have as much a matchup advantage at Jordan's position than the disadvantage they had at center against somebody like Hakeem Olajuwon. This gets glossed over in all the national media MJ worship, but the gap between Olajuwon and the Bill Cartwrights and the Luc Longleys of the world was greater than that between Jordan and Maxwell, or even Jordan vs. an aging Clyde Drexler in 1995.

In '95, Jordan came back, played in 17 regular season games before the Bulls began the playoffs. Now, the conventional wisdom in the "Bulls would've won!" mindset is Jordan was not at full tilt, still warming up after baseball didn't work out for him. His playoff stats, however, certainly betray this a bit much to be taken as gospel truth.

Fact: Michael Jordan averaged more points per game in the 1995 playoffs than he did in the next two years that yielded two more rings for the Bulls. He had the stamina to log 42 minutes a game in 10 playoff games, averaging 31.5 points compared to 30.7 in 18 games in 1996. His field goal percentage was higher than it was in the 1993, 1996 and 1997 playoffs. It's all right here. His 1995 playoff rebounds and assists average was also higher than it was the following year. By any statistical measure, Jordan performed better individually in the year the Bulls bowed out to the Magic in the second round.

They lost because they had no answer for Shaq, and Shaq was no answer for Hakeem in '95.

So, what's this "asterisk" business we're talking about here?
Sound theory, but Jordan typically rose to the occasion in the playoffs when it mattered most. Vernon Maxwell is no more a defensive force than a guy like Gerald Wilkins, heralded as the 'Jordan-stopper' and wound up getting torched by Jordan in the playoffs, when it counts.

As far as Jordan in the 95 playoffs, asides from the 48 point game against the Hornets in round one which bumped his averages, no-one watching Jordan that playoffs would walk away thinking Jordan had a better run than in 1993, 1996 or 1997 just by looking at the stats. This is one scenario where stats don't always tell the tale.

The big advantage is Hakeem in the middle, particularly in 95, when he was playing a historic level of Basketball. That Rockets team would have provided the Bulls greatest challenge, and all we can do is speculate. But one thing I've learned to do over time is put little stock in regular season meetings. We've seen quite a few scenarios where team A dominates team B in the regular season, but doesn't work out that way in the playoffs. I personally don't put an asterisk next to the Rockets, in fact during Jordan's absence Hakeem was probably my favorite player (along with Pippen) and Jordan or not, they're a legit championship squad.
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,368,561 times
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I like Jfre81's post a lot, but citing a 3 game sample to say that Vernon Maxwell would contain the GREATEST PLAYER IN NBAs history in a final is a hard pill for me to swallow. I agree with most of the rest though.
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Old 09-12-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Avondale, Chicago
14,423 posts, read 26,261,562 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
but citing a 3 game sample to say that Vernon Maxwell would contain the GREATEST PLAYER IN NBAs history in a final is a hard pill for me to swallow.
See, this is why I don't much care for any player getting placed on a pedestal higher than the game. Any rational arguments can get shot down on the spot by someone pushing platitudes about "oh yeah? Well, this guy was the GREATEST!" and everyone just nods in agreement.

For one, my focus there was not solely on the Jordan/Maxwell matchup because it didn't exist in 1995. Like I laid out up there, Jordan was playing in that playoffs, his numbers compared favorably to his own right before his retirement and surely after the next season when the Bulls were a better team after acquiring Dennis Rodman. As for '94 - considering four wins are all you need to take a series - Jordan's last three meetings with Houston are as good an indication as we have of how a Rockets-Bulls '94 finals would have gone down. It's evidence enough that the result of this hypothetical Finals would not have been the slam dunk for MJ and the Bulls as most of the NBA fandom assumes.

Even if Jordan did manage to drop a 40-something point bomb on Maxwell in '94, who was going to stop Hakeem from doing the same thing? And, for as great Jordan was, he couldn't carry the team in '95. That's because, no matter how much ESPN and Sports Illustrated revered the guy - and no matter how many times we saw MJ's mug pitching Nike sneakers, Big Macs and Ball Park hotdogs - basketball was and is still a team game.

Championships don't go to individuals. They go to teams.
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