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Old 07-11-2011, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,880,422 times
Reputation: 1802

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
Again, Chris Gatling was also a coach's choice. Was this guy ever a beast? No.

Who else was on that 1996-97 all-star roster:

Shawn Kemp
Karl Malone
Hakeem
Gary Payton
John Stockton
Mitch Richmond
Tom Gugliatta
Latrell Sprewell
Eddie Jones
Kevin Garnett
Detlef Schrempf
Chris Gatling

Plenty of HOF level talent, but you choose to pick out Gatling. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Are you arguing that his selection wasn't justified, just because you choose to bring up Gatling's name?



JR Smith is a bench player.

Starter at one point on Denver playoff teams a few years ago.

Harrington has been a bench player for a couple years now.

Starter at one point.

Where are they?
Bill Willoughby, Korlene Young, Jonathan Bender, Leon Smith, Ousmane Cisse, Ndubi Ebi, James Lang, Robert Swift, Sebatian Telfair, Gerald Green, Ricky Sanchez (thank you Wikipedia)

Add these into the mix: Darius Miles, DeShawn Stephenson, Kwame Brown, Diop, Travis Outlaw, Shaun Livingston, Martell Webster, CJ Miles, Louis Williams, Andray Blatche, and the last high school draftee Amir Johnson.

Stephenson, you mean the guy who was the starting shooting guard on the Mavs 2011 championship team? Though so. Now let me clarify, Stevenson is far from a great player. But did he make a contribution to the Mavs title this year? Yeah....ok....

Would you like me to write you a list of all the college players who didn't pan out? How much time do you have?

The point is there's plenty of high school players that excelled at the NBA level. I'm sure the list of college players who were expected to be something in the NBA, that didn't end up as anything, is a mile long.
And there's many who attended college, who didn't become stars right away. Really it's a moot point, at the end of the day if a player is going to be great, he'll be great. The path he took to get there ( skipping college, going through college, playing for the Shanghai Sharks) is simply a means to an end.


Different positions, different styles. James is really good defender.

No-one will argue that James is as good a defender as Rodman, or that Kobe Bryant impacts the game defensively like Mourning or Mutumbo or ROBINSON did. Well....no-one but you. Hell I'll vouch for your hero and say that Lebron doesn't impact the game like Howard does either. Anything for argument's sake, eh?

By the way, Rodman got away with murder when defending; grabbing, holding, etc. He would riding the bench in today's standards playing that way. Just staying...

Oh-oh here we go again.
If you want to argue era, the only thing we can do is debate how good they were relative to the era. Rodman, in his era, was a better defender than James is, in this era. You can apply that argument to a number of 90's players. Hell Scottie Pippen, arguably the most versatile perimeter player ever, has gone on record saying he'd likely foul out in this era. So what, Pippen rides the pine too? You want to argue ad nauseum on era, than argue on that player's greatness relative to the era.


I did not ever say it was hard for a big man to score.

Really? So you didn't say this:

"It is a guard league. It has been that way for a while now. It is why no Center is averaging close to what prior to 95(ish) Centers were averaging. It's not because of any less talent... it's because of rules changing dealing with big men"

Seems like you're suggesting that the reason centers aren't scoring as much, is because rules changes have made it more difficult for centers, and easier for guards, hence it being a 'guard's league' as you keep saying. You losing track of your own comments? Hmmm.....


Shaq has shown that as false.

Shaq scored his highest PPG before the new rules favoring perimeter players. His PPG also went down over the last decade as he left his prime years, which coincided with the onset of these 'perimeter-oriented' rules.

Hell Howard is posting 23 points/game. Fairly good amount of points given the teammates he plays with.

You mean the ones that on one hand you propped up when comparing them to Robinson's, then tried to tear down as chuckers standing out on the 3pt line? Whatever suits your argument.....again. No-one on the Magic is stopping Howard from being a better offensive player, or posting higher numbers. More excuses.....



1 Center in your list...

Didn't I say Yao is a one-off example earlier? I also said it's a drought period of great offensive centers coming out of college. Which means it's not just NBA rules affecting dominant center play. They aren't coming out of college, so no it's not likely you're going to see any centers exploding on the scene offensively anytime soon.


Dirk plays a SF game.

He's also started going down in the post and posting up more. When was the last time you watched Dirk, 4 years ago?


A big rule change, i.e. restricted zone, implemented in 1997 led to more fouls on Big Men since the Big Man has to be outside the zone in order to either take a charge or attempt at defense. If they are within that circle, it is a defensive foul i.e. favoring the guard and, as you stated, the small forward since alot of them playing like a guard.

Right off Wikipedia LOL. Well cut and pasted....


It has nothing to do with being in the run-and-gun high assist offense of Mike D'Antoni... hmm...

Except, last year he averaged numbers consistent with his MVP years: 14.7 points,11.4 assists and rounded off 50% shooting, 90% foul-line, 40% on 3's. Mike D'Antonio was coaching New York last season, for the record. Oh, and he's 37 years old. Hmmmmm.....

This same style offense made Felton look like a stud earlier this season... hmm...

Stud is pushing it.


You made it seem like a 6'9 guy was guarding him. No these guys physically are big guys, not scrawny Jermaine O'Neal's of the NBA. Just because these guys aren't scorers doesn't make them bad defenders.

I didn't make that argument. There's no correlation between being a scorer and a bad defender that I made. But none of those guys on the Hawks are going to give Howard much challenge, on offense or defense.

You're just at the point of making stuff up now.



Are you sure you don't want the Magic Head Coach job?

Am I the one bitching about their offense? Am I the Magic fan? Next.....


Yeah because playing on the Chinese National Team for all those years playing Europeans (that made the NBA) and even the Worlds in 2002 (right before entering NBA) which the USA puts together a team of NBA stars as well as the rest of the countries pulls their NBA superstars for their national teams.

More excuses. Howard couldn't deal with Yao head to head. Proof in is the numbers, and the win-loss record. You'll sleep better when you can accept that. Or don't, but you must be burning yourself out coming up with all these excuses.

Again, I only singled out Blocks. That's it.

Yes because that's the only thing you seem capable of hammering on. GET OVER THE BLOCKS. Even if you want to argue semantics of who's the better shotblocker and throw the old 'era' argument into it, Robinson's still the more skilled player in just about every other area. End of....next.

I said it because the guards are taking a more active role in scoring today. How many true point guards still exist? Not many.

In the 90s, they were plenty.

Yeah? Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Isiah Thomas( going back to the 80's), Mark Price , Gary Payton, Stephon Marbury, Damon Stoudamire( in Toronto) Sam Cassell, were all scoring point guards in the 90's. The concept of scoring point guards isn't a new phenomenon.

The purest points from the 90's: Stockton and Kidd.


Robinson couldn't possibly score what he once did on average.

Take your own 'believe what you will' advice on that one. I contend he averages at least 25-26, possibly more depending on the makeup of the team. Most importantly, he has the offensive SKILL to average that much. Howard does not have scoring skills like David Robinson.


Did you not read my statement?

I might have, in truth since I'm just going along with the flow for ****s and giggles, I probably overlooked it.

I stated I predict Robinson would average 12.5.

At least that.


27pts, 14reb, 4blks

Nah, he ain't scoring that much. He can't even score that today, he's not scoring that 20 years ago. If you notice, the centers who actually scored that much back then, actually had really great offensive games. Howard does not. Or you got someone like Shaq, who may not have a 'great' offensive game but is just overwhelmingly dominant. And no, Howard isn't remotely close to Shaq as a physical force.


Wilt did what he did because he was ten times larger than everyone and he was crazy athletic.

Not the point. The point is RULE CHANGES WERE MADE because of him. He played under DIFFERENT RULES than Robinson, who played under different rules than Howard. The point is rule changes have been ongoing throughout the NBA's history. You think Robinson is playing under similar rules to George Mikan? The game has changed more from the 50's/60's to the 90's, then it has from the 90's to now.



YouTube - ‪Yao vs Superman - The League's Best Center? Jalen Rose Analyzes on ESPN‬‏

I have no audio at work, so I can't hear this and thus didn't watch it. I'll assume this video is saying that the analysts rate Howard as the best center. Howard's the best when he's playing everyone except Yao.


This is what I remember from the games I have watched between the two of them...

YouTube - ‪Shaq Flops vs Dwight Howard (Superman vs Superman 2.0!)‬‏

You do realize that it's more impressive for a 38 year old Shaq to do what he did against a 25 year old Howard, then vice versa, right? And in that video, Shaq tried a flop, Howard spun around him and dunked. Shaq, by comparison, DUNKED ON Howard. See the difference.... probably not.

The main point of posting that was to say that Shaq would S**t all over Howard in his prime. Remember when you said David can't guard Shaq? You weren't bringing that up to say Howard can, did you?


Bold reply.

Last edited by Roman77; 07-11-2011 at 12:29 PM..
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:09 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,198,412 times
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navy made it to the round of 64 in 1994 and lost to missouri by 23 points,1996 round of 64 lost to duke by 21, and again in 1997 where they lost to utah by 14. not like they where winning tournaments or even keeping the games close. in other words, david robinson took a team of near high school talent to a round of 64 3 times where he actually met stiff competition and was blown out. could dewight howard do the same? i personally dont think he can. all i see howard having is his body, his muscle, and athletic ability with little to no real fundamentals, and a bit of personality. dont get me wrong, howard is one of my favorite players of today but even his most stanch supporters have to admit he is still immature, still not a "leader", and still not a "go to" player even after 7 years of nba play. even if he put up the exact same numbers as robinson, i would take david every day of the week and twice on sunday as they say because david was/is a better leader, more mature and more fundamentally sound. howard would not be a 3rd tier center in 1995, but he would not be a top tier guy either. his lack of fundamentals makes him very one dimensional. he can jump high, but he even has a hard time banging with what few bigs there are in the league now. he would not be able to back a guy like hakeem down into the paint to that high flying dunk.

i am confused, maybe i missed something earlier also but the nba has never had a 35 second shot clock so not sure how that says anything about the pace of the game changing. the nba shot clock has been a 24 second clock since 1954.

now on to yaos career before the nba, he started playing at age 13 in the junior leagues and on to senior leagues at 17. this is in china, not against european teams, this is in the chinese basketball association. just like the nba doesnt play against spanish teams, or canadian teams (well except those rotten raptors) the CBA didnt play euro teams. you totally dominated as he got older, his last season he averaged wilt like numbers 39 points and 20.2 rebounds per game while shooting 76.6%. the very next season he averaged 13.6 ppg, and 8.2 rpg, a far cry from the domination of the much inferior players of the cba. i would venture to say that howard would more then likely put up better rpg numbers over the same competition but no way does he score more then yao. yao has the foot work, the shooting stroke that howard doesnt. howards best pre-nba numbers, 25, 18, 8 blocks and 3.5 assists. even against high schoolers, his numbers (other then blocks) are just not ridiculous. even yao put up better numbers.

3 years ago if you asked me who i would take to build around i would have jumped all over howard, but at 7 seasons in, his improvement just hasnt been there. if you ask me today i say blake griffin but i can see him going to route of howard and never really "improving" much to speak of. i think howard has nearly reached his potential and will not get much better. that is not saying he isnt very good, top 5 players in the league right now i think, but then again, it goes back to the league being weak with the bigs.

on a side note, the league used to not allow zone defense hence the "illegal d" technical, once they allowed the zone they added the restricted area to make a bit of compromise. this IMO has led to the lack of great individual defenders. back in robinsons day players had to defend man on man coverage much more then they do today. if howard had to play man up on robinson, then hakeem on a back to back, now that would be a murderers row man-up compared to todays standards.
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
howard would not be a 3rd tier center in 1995, but he would not be a top tier guy either.
This is pretty much what I was saying, I'd put him at Alonzo Mourning level, a star center but not one of the 'elites' like Shaq/Hakeem/Robinson. I'm not quite sure as to where he fits versus Ewing, Ewing is probably both overrated and underrated at the same time.But no, in the 90's, not first tier.
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:31 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,198,412 times
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ok i just watched the video where jalen rose says howard is the better player head to head his numbers are better. this is blatantly FALSE!

Yao Ming vs. Dwight Howard | Basketball-Reference.com

(remember head to head, and those are jalen roses words)
yao 23.6 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 1.2 apg, .7 spg, 2.1 bpg, on 56%
howard 12.2 ppg (TWELVE PPG?) 9.8 rpg, 9.8 rpg, 1.3 spg, 1.7 bpg, and 45% shooting.
this is not to mention yao shot 79% to 60% free throw %. yao CLEARLY dominated every head to head matchup. hell look at their last game they played each other, yao had 20 and 16, dwight had 13 and 10. howard had only 3 fouls and they both played 38 minutes. howard shot 46% yao shot 62%. howard had 3 turnovers to yaos ZERO. howard only broke 20 points in one game. howard only grabbed 12 rebounds once, yao had a 16 rebound game, a 17 and a 13. it was not even close. makes you wonder how much better yao could have been with no injuries.
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,880,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
ok i just watched the video where jalen rose says howard is the better player head to head his numbers are better. this is blatantly FALSE!

Yao Ming vs. Dwight Howard | Basketball-Reference.com

(remember head to head, and those are jalen roses words)
yao 23.6 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 1.2 apg, .7 spg, 2.1 bpg, on 56%
howard 12.2 ppg (TWELVE PPG?) 9.8 rpg, 9.8 rpg, 1.3 spg, 1.7 bpg, and 45% shooting.
this is not to mention yao shot 79% to 60% free throw %. yao CLEARLY dominated every head to head matchup. hell look at their last game they played each other, yao had 20 and 16, dwight had 13 and 10. howard had only 3 fouls and they both played 38 minutes. howard shot 46% yao shot 62%. howard had 3 turnovers to yaos ZERO. howard only broke 20 points in one game. howard only grabbed 12 rebounds once, yao had a 16 rebound game, a 17 and a 13. it was not even close. makes you wonder how much better yao could have been with no injuries.
I brought this up a few posts back. This prompted a response from Ncos99 of Yao playing professionally in China( because this makes ALL the difference in the world ) and trying to compare Yao vs Dwight to Hakeem vs Shaq in the NBA finals. The excuses are entertaining; it's actually kind of fun trying to guess what else he comes up with.
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Old 07-11-2011, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,946,399 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Plenty of HOF level talent, but you choose to pick out Gatling. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Are you arguing that his selection wasn't justified, just because you choose to bring up Gatling's name?
He is the worst of the all-stars. As for KG, he was again young and not near his career averages. Again, he didn't turn the corner until 4 years after being drafted.

Quote:
Starter at one point on Denver playoff teams a few years ago.

Call it what you want but he is a bench player on a team of all newbies from NY.

Quote:
Starter at one point.

But hasn't been consistantly since Atlanta in 05-06. In fact, he started a whooping 3 games last season. But if you considered that plus his career average of 13.8 pts as starter/superstar stats, go ahead.

Quote:
Would you like me to write you a list of all the college players who didn't pan out? How much time do you have?

The volume of college vs high school students are non-comparable but feel free to go that route if you like.

Quote:
Hell Scottie Pippen, arguably the most versatile perimeter player ever, has gone on record saying he'd likely foul out in this era. So what, Pippen rides the pine too? You want to argue ad nauseum on era, than argue on that player's greatness relative to the era.

The whole topic is about era vs era. This has been the discussion. Pippen realized how much they could do back then (he isn't the only player to state that) vs the rules that changed the game around late 90s/early 00s. Fact: You could get away with a hell of lot more on defense in pre-late 90s rules.

Quote:
Really? So you didn't say this:

"It is a guard league. It has been that way for a while now. It is why no Center is averaging close to what prior to 95(ish) Centers were averaging. It's not because of any less talent... it's because of rules changing dealing with big men"


Seems like you're suggesting that the reason centers aren't scoring as much, is because rules changes have made it more difficult for centers, and easier for guards, hence it being a 'guard's league' as you keep saying. You losing track of your own comments? Hmmm.....

Again... as a guard/small forward scores more in a new 35 second clock era, that means less shot opportunities for a big man. Add into the extra fouls they now get for hand checks, being inside the zone, etc. So yes, the new rules adversely affects the big guys.

Quote:
You mean the ones that on one hand you propped up when comparing them to Robinson's, then tried to tear down as chuckers standing out on the 3pt line? Whatever suits your argument.....again. No-one on the Magic is stopping Howard from being a better offensive player, or posting higher numbers. More excuses.....

Fact: all those guys shot tons of threes playing a completely different game that they played a year earlier before joining the Magic. When you have guys that can shoot and are told to shoot, Howard of course wont get the touches he needs. Do you realize until this year Howard was 3rd/4th in shot attempts on the team... Again, product of a system. I leave it at that.

Quote:
Yeah? Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Isiah Thomas( going back to the 80's), Mark Price , Gary Payton, Stephon Marbury, Damon Stoudamire( in Toronto) Sam Cassell, were all scoring point guards in the 90's. The concept of scoring point guards isn't a new phenomenon.

Never said they didn't have scorers. I said they played like a true point guard i.e. look for passes prior to shooting. Check out assists numbers...

KJ averaged 9.1 assists on career
Tim averaged 8.2 assists on career
Isiah averaged 9.3 assists on career
Mark Price averaged 8 assists during his prime
Payton averaged 8.3 assists prior to the rule changes
Marbury averaged 8.4 assists prior to the rule changes
Damon averaged 8.8 assists in Toronto

As for the other two...
Penny was compared to Magic for his size 6'9 (not typical for a PG in that period) and skill set. Yes, he played the point. So I will give you him.

Cassell didn't come into the Cassell we all know until he hit the Bucks in 99-00 i.e. when the rules changed.

Here are our PGs since the rules changed...(note excluding the 4 true PGs, Paul, Nash, Deron, Rondo)
Derrick Rose - 6.7assists
Russell Westbrook - 7.1assists
Jameer Nelson - 4.9assists
DJ Augustin - 4.0assists
Gilbert Arenas - 5.4assists
Mike Bibby - 5.7assists
Tony Parker - 5.7assists
Chauncey Billups - 5.6assists
Stephen Curry - 5.9assists
Mo Williams - 5.0assists
Mike Conley - 5.9assists
Brandon Jennings - 5.3assists
Tyreke Evans - 5.7assists
Devin Harris - 5.0assists

Quote:
Not the point. The point is RULE CHANGES WERE MADE because of him. He played under DIFFERENT RULES than Robinson, who played under different rules than Howard. The point is rule changes have been ongoing throughout the NBA's history. You think Robinson is playing under similar rules to George Mikan? The game has changed more from the 50's/60's to the 90's, then it has from the 90's to now.

It has but nowhere close to the changes that happen over the new millenium; rules that favored a position over another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas
in other words, david robinson took a team of near high school talent to a round of 64 3 times where he actually met stiff competition and was blown out.
You stated the played no ones. I just stated they didn't. That's it.

Quote:
howard is one of my favorite players of today but even his most stanch supporters have to admit he is still immature, still not a "leader", and still not a "go to" player even after 7 years of nba play.
Howard won't be the "go to" player until he leaves Stan Van Gundy whether Van Gundy gets fired or Howard leaves us for another team.

Quote:
ok i just watched the video where jalen rose says howard is the better player head to head his numbers are better. this is blatantly FALSE!
I posted it mainly for Tim's analysis. I am fully aware in Yao leading Howard in games against each other.
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Old 07-12-2011, 05:19 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,880,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post

As for KG, he was again young and not near his career averages. Again, he didn't turn the corner until 4 years after being drafted.

WHO CARES? He was still picked as an all-star. If Howard had been picked that early in his career, regardless of whether he was near his averages, you'd have raised it. Stop reaching.....



Call it what you want but he is a bench player on a team of all newbies from NY.

He's been a starter. What he is now I'm not particularly concerned about, the point is he's been or is a solid contributor to a team. He's not Jonathan Bender or the other list of high schoolers you mentioned that aren't in the NBA period.


But hasn't been consistantly since Atlanta in 05-06. In fact, he started a whooping 3 games last season. But if you considered that plus his career average of 13.8 pts as starter/superstar stats, go ahead.

See above. The point I raised about the high schoolers I named, is that they were/are all starters/stars/all-stars. I raised it to say there's lots of high schoolers who have made it to the NBA. They range from Kobe, to Al Harrington. Point is that they are, or have been successful NBA players, to varying degrees.


The volume of college vs high school students are non-comparable but feel free to go that route if you like.

Obviously, the point I was making, in response to your point about Howard taking a while to develop coming out of high school, is that it's not an exclusive trait of high schoolers, and it doesn't mean that a high schooler 'can't' develop strong fundamental sets within a few years of joining the NBA. There's lots of college players who took a while to develop, couldn't hang in the league, or weren't necessarily that fundamentally sound.

It's all pretty moot anyway. So sticking to the topic of Howard, he's played 7 seasons. The point about his fundamentals at this stage shouldn't be a discussion. He's had plenty of time now, and the 'boo-hoo he came out of high school so give him time' excuse ran out about 2-3 years ago.



The whole topic is about era vs era. This has been the discussion. Pippen realized how much they could do back then (he isn't the only player to state that) vs the rules that changed the game around late 90s/early 00s. Fact: You could get away with a hell of lot more on defense in pre-late 90s rules.

It wasn't a question necessarily of 'realizing' it consciously, it was simply playing within the boundaries of what that time period allowed. And on that topic, Pippen was a better defender in his era, than Lebron is in this one. And if Lebron was playing then, he'd be able to use the same 'tactics' Pippen did. But anyone who's watched enough of the two, throwing 'era' out the window for a moment, can see Pippen had superior anticipation, lateral quickness, and instincts in comparison to Lebron. Those traits would have translated to this era.

What you are in fact saying, when you say you could get away with alot more then, is that you could actually play defense back then. The game today has been pussified.



Again... as a guard/small forward scores more in a new 35 second clock era, that means less shot opportunities for a big man. Add into the extra fouls they now get for hand checks, being inside the zone, etc. So yes, the new rules adversely affects the big guys.

Oh, but didn't you say this:

"I did not ever say it was hard for a big man to score."

Now you're saying it is. Try to keep up with your own arguments.

Oh, and.....hmmmm, the shot clock is 24 seconds. Was in David Robinson's era, is in Howard's era. What are you talking about with the 35 second clock era?



Fact: all those guys shot tons of threes playing a completely different game that they played a year earlier before joining the Magic. When you have guys that can shoot and are told to shoot, Howard of course wont get the touches he needs. Do you realize until this year Howard was 3rd/4th in shot attempts on the team... Again, product of a system. I leave it at that.

And I said stop bitching to me about your team's playbook, and apply for Van Gundy's job. Do you know what superstars do? Demand the ball. If Van Gundy's the problem, then your team should fire him. So you can apply and lead them to the promised land.

I leave it at that.



Never said they didn't have scorers. I said they played like a true point guard i.e. look for passes prior to shooting. Check out assists numbers...

KJ averaged 9.1 assists on career
Tim averaged 8.2 assists on career
Isiah averaged 9.3 assists on career
Mark Price averaged 8 assists during his prime
Payton averaged 8.3 assists prior to the rule changes
Marbury averaged 8.4 assists prior to the rule changes
Damon averaged 8.8 assists in Toronto

Umm how are those guys any different to Paul, Deron Williams,Westbrook, Rose? They're guys who played primary scoring roles on their team, either 1st or second option. They weren't 'true' point guards either. Hell Kevin Johnson averaged like 22 points and 11 assists a few years. You call that a 'true' point? The guys I raised were all high scorers, primary options on their teams. Look at Paul before this year: 21 and 11 a couple years back. Deron Williams was like 19 and 10. Rose this year, 24 and 8.

What you neglected to do, when posting their assist numbers only, is you deliberately didn't show the scoring numbers alongside them. I assume because it defeats your argument. Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Payton, Marbury were all 20 ppg scorers in their primes, along with the high assist numbers. Price was a good scorer, as was Isiah. Stoudamire( and this is going by memory) was like 19 and 9 as a rookie. THE SCORING POINT GUARD ISN'T A NEW THING.

The 'true' point guard, the pass first ones, in the 90's: Stockton, Kidd, Mark Jackson. Kevin Johnson? Gary Payton? Tim Hardaway? Scoring points.



Cassell didn't come into the Cassell we all know until he hit the Bucks in 99-00 i.e. when the rules changed.

The rule changes that most impacted perimeter players to the effect we see today didn't occur till the early 2000's. Cassell was still a 'scoring' point from the outset of his career, he was more prolific in the 2000's, but he didn't 'change' from a true point to a scoring point because of the rule changes.

Here are our PGs since the rules changed...(note excluding the 4 true PGs, Paul, Nash, Deron, Rondo)

Rondo is the closest to a 'true' point out of that list, if you're defining it as 'strictly pass first' or not primary scoring options on their teams. Watching Rondo's role within the Celtics offense, it's clear his scoring isn't integral to the success of the Celtics( as his scoring numbers show), it's really more of a bonus if he gives them high scoring numbers in a particular game. He is primarily a passer and defender, that is what he mainly provides the Celtics. Hell, this year Rondo averaged more assists (11.2) than points (10.6).

Paul, Nash, and Deron's scoring, as well as their passing, is crucial to the success of their respective teams. You're not even making sense within the context of your own argument. How do you define Chris Paul who a few years ago pre-injury was averaging 21 and 11, or Kevin Johnson who averaged over 20 and 10 prior to Barkley joining the Suns, as true points? They averaged TWICE as many points as ASSISTS! How do you quality them as 'true' points when their scoring averages double their assist averages? Hell Nash in the 2006 and 2007 season was averaging 18 and 11, a clear disparity between scoring and passing.

I can go back as far as Nate Archibald if you like. 34 and 11 in 1973. I'll repeat, the rules of today did not usher in a new era of 'scoring' point guards. You've had point guards averaging high scoring numbers, AND assists, for YEARS. And it's because that player was probably the best scorer on his team, and so his scoring was important to the success of their respective team.


It has but nowhere close to the changes that happen over the new millenium; rules that favored a position over another.

Continue to believe that. Today's game is closer to the 90's, than the 90's is to the 50's or 60's. I'm not going to go into a 'rule for rule' argument with you, a simple eye-test can see that.

As far as 'favoring' positions, rules were created in the past decade to give the perimeter players more offensive freedom, not restrict bigmen. Teams can still rely on dominant bigmen as their primary scorers, provided that they have such a player on their roster. I've already stated that there aren't many great bigs coming out of COLLEGE, so it's not a case of NBA rules taking away the ability of a bigman to score big. Greats bigs are few and far between PERIOD. Effectively what you're saying is that recent NBA rules are putting a 'cap' on how much a bigman can score.....which is BS. Great offensive bigmen aren't coming INTO the NBA. When was the last heralded bigman? Greg Oden? And he's primarily a defensive force.


Bold reply.

Last edited by Roman77; 07-12-2011 at 06:46 AM..
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,880,422 times
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Ncopus99, it's pretty obvious we can go back and forth from now until on this topic, since neither one of us is going to relinquish their position, I suggest we simply agree to disagree respectfully, and walk away. But this debate is becoming pretty tedious and repetitive at this stage.
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Old 07-12-2011, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
If Howard had been picked that early in his career, regardless of whether he was near his averages, you'd have raised it. Stop reaching.....
Why would I? One of the better guys was shafted for the all-star game this season until an injury from another allowed him in (i.e. Kevin Love). Let's count those all Boston and all Detroit type years. Not to mentioned all the fan voting for Yao, when he was injured. The All-Star game is joke in itself.

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He's not Jonathan Bender or the other list of high schoolers you mentioned that aren't in the NBA period.
Didn't say he was... All I said was he was a bench player.

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The point about his fundamentals at this stage shouldn't be a discussion.
From an offensive standpoint, it hasn't been. All I said as it relates to his offense is that he was dominant with his limited offensive moves i.e. being quick and agile.

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And on that topic, Pippen was a better defender in his era, than Lebron is in this one. And if Lebron was playing then, he'd be able to use the same 'tactics' Pippen did. But anyone who's watched enough of the two, throwing 'era' out the window for a moment, can see Pippen had superior anticipation, lateral quickness, and instincts in comparison to Lebron. Those traits would have translated to this era.
That's your opinion. Lebron would have to change his style of defense in order to even play back then. He plays like a safety i.e. all over the place. As for anticipation, quickness, and instincts, I really question whether you still watch that many NBA games to date. I would post Lebron videos showing this but it's moot at this point.

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What you are in fact saying, when you say you could get away with alot more then, is that you could actually play defense back then. The game today has been pussified.
That was exactly my point to start this huge crazy dialog.

Quote:
Umm how are those guys any different to Paul, Deron Williams,Westbrook, Rose? They're guys who played primary scoring roles on their team, either 1st or second option. They weren't 'true' point guards either. Hell Kevin Johnson averaged like 22 points and 11 assists a few years. You call that a 'true' point? The guys I raised were all high scorers, primary options on their teams. Look at Paul before this year: 21 and 11 a couple years back. Deron Williams was like 19 and 10. Rose this year, 24 and 8.
Again Rose and Westbrook average 6.7, 7.1 assists repectively; almost 2+ less than from any of the guys you listed. The others I excluded (even told you about them) because of their assists i.e. I know they pass the ball like a true point.

Here are a few others you excluded that have high assists like...
Magic - 11.2assists
Rod Strickland in prime (90-99) - 9 assists
Mugsy in prime (89-94) - 9.4 assists
Van Exel in prime (94-00) - 8 assists

So I just added another 4 that are way above the 00-10s guys...

I excluded points because we all know they scored... the difference is that they also knew how to deliver the ball and give their teammates nice shots. Today points guards dont do it but the handful I mentioned plus super vet Jason Kidd do compared to what now the 11 that I have mentioned.

Quote:
Great offensive bigmen aren't coming INTO the NBA. When was the last heralded bigman? Greg Oden? And he's primarily a defensive force.
Just last year DeMarcus Cousins was getting all the hype. Jared Sullinger (yes, a PF but still a big guy) next year. Dude they come all the time

Whether they pan out, it's to be seen.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Earth
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I'm only going to respond to a few of this, because really this is beyond pointless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post


That's your opinion.

It's all opinion, isn't it? Water is wet.... thanks Captain obvious.


Lebron would have to change his style of defense in order to even play back then.

And Pippen would have to change his style today. Are you saying he's incapable of doing so? Remember my comment about adapting? Actually, don't answer that, I don't care to drag out this discussion with you any longer.


As for anticipation, quickness, and instincts, I really question whether you still watch that many NBA games to date.

Funny enough, I've been having the same questions about you. Do I think Scottie had more natural defensive instincts? Yes I do... can I quality that beyond an 'eye-test'? No... it's just my impression having watched them both. You feel differently.... welcome to the world of differing opinions. Here's a video of Pippen on defense:


YouTube - ‪Scottie Pippen: Ultimate Defender‬‏


Alot of those plays aren't grabbing, biting, pushing, pulling or whatever other characteristics you state to describe the defense of the 90's. It's just straight up nasty defense. Now, however you think it compares to Lebron's style of defense, whatever. Give me Pippen's defense, relative to the era, any day of the week. The fact that you agree that defense this era is 'pussified'.... logically one can draw the conclusion that if Pippen stands out defensively in an era where you can ACTUALLY play defense.. and Lebron stands out in an era where the rules have been pussified....then all things considered, it would lead to Pippen being a better defender. But I know you think otherwise.....

Again Rose and Westbrook average 6.7, 7.1 assists repectively; almost 2+ less than from any of the guys you listed.

A disingenuous argument on your end. Westbrook has averaged 8.0 and 8.2 assists the last two seasons, the reason his career average is 7.1 is because his rookie season he averaged 5.6 assists. 8 assists is probably indicative of what you can expect from Westbrook moving forward. Rose averaged 7.7 assists this year, and let's be real, Chicago needs him to be a 25 point scorer. That team is built primarily on defensive grounds, so they don't have tons of great scorers. How successful do you think Chicago would be without Rose's scoring? In fact, I'd say Rose in the D.Wade style: playing the point the first couple of seasons, but clearly suited to be a shooting guard. If Chicago can land a TRUE PASS FIRST point guard, Rose would explode in the role of shooting guard.

Both Westbrook and Rose are scoring points, but guess what? So are Paul and Williams, as they are capable of scoring 20 points AND handing out 10 assists. Most would rate Paul and Williams as better passers then Westbrook and Rose, which is why people generally consider Paul/Williams the best two point guards( though Rose has crept into that discussion this year, obviously).



I excluded points because we all know they scored... the difference is that they also knew how to deliver the ball and give their teammates nice shots. Today points guards dont do it but the handful I mentioned plus super vet Jason Kidd do compared to what now the 11 that I have mentioned.

Just because they 'knew how to deliver the ball', doesn't make them 'true' points. Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Gary Payton's ability to 'deliver the ball' doesn't supersede the fact that they were primary scorers on their teams.

Chris Paul, Deron Williams are in the same vein as the Tim Hardaways and Gary Payton's of the 90's: high scoring, primary scoring options that can pass. Doesn't make them 'true' points though. Paul and Deron are scoring points, as were the Paytons and the Hardaways of the 90's. Guys like Payton and Hardaway, Isiah Thomas had ELITE scoring ability, which is shown in the numbers. Same as Paul and Williams.... The fact that they also had high assist numbers puts them in the category of 'prolific'. And it's generally why they are considered 'the best'. But, 'true' points they are not, they are scoring points.

Yes I know you disagree, so you don't need to repeat yourself. I got it the first 10 times.



Just last year DeMarcus Cousins was getting all the hype.

He's in his first year. And really, when I say 'dominant' big coming out of college, I'm talking the Shaquille Oneal/ Tim Duncan instant domination type. When was the last big on that level, to come out? Demarcus Counsins??? LOL..... Greg Oden was seen as the 'next' great dominant center coming into the NBA. Not Demarcus Cousins, he was getting some hype but not even REMOTELY close to what Oden was getting.


Jared Sullinger (yes, a PF but still a big guy) next year.

Next year....so you have no idea what kind of player he will be. Why even bring him up?

Whether they pan out, it's to be seen.

Bingo.
Anyways, bored yet?

Last edited by Roman77; 07-12-2011 at 12:41 PM..
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