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Old 07-12-2011, 03:48 PM
 
Location: 20 years from now
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The only evolutionary change between players now and back then seems to be in the height and weight of the players themselves. Skill wise, I think the 90s talent depth is just better overall. Players today are definately bigger/stronger and heavier.
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Alot of those plays aren't grabbing, biting, pushing, pulling or whatever other characteristics you state to describe the defense of the 90's. It's just straight up nasty defense. Now, however you think it compares to Lebron's style of defense, whatever. Give me Pippen's defense, relative to the era, any day of the week. The fact that you agree that defense this era is 'pussified'.... logically one can draw the conclusion that if Pippen stands out defensively in an era where you can ACTUALLY play defense.. and Lebron stands out in an era where the rules have been pussified....then all things considered, it would lead to Pippen being a better defender. But I know you think otherwise.....
Here let's have Pippen himself mention how easier it was to guard someone via handchecking, armbaring, etc.

YouTube - ‪Scottie pippen talks about new nba rules no hand checking & 90's defense was tougher than today‬‏

Quote:
A disingenuous argument on your end. Westbrook has averaged 8.0 and 8.2 assists the last two seasons, the reason his career average is 7.1 is because his rookie season he averaged 5.6 assists.

I did career averages on your original guys for the most part. Cry me a river. Your guys had years in 10+ in assists. I don't see Westbrook ever averaging that and he is on a team with loads of scorers.

Quote:
Rose averaged 7.7 assists this year, and let's be real, Chicago needs him to be a 25 point scorer. That team is built primarily on defensive grounds, so they don't have tons of great scorers. How successful do you think Chicago would be without Rose's scoring? In fact, I'd say Rose in the D.Wade style: playing the point the first couple of seasons, but clearly suited to be a shooting guard. If Chicago can land a TRUE PASS FIRST point guard, Rose would explode in the role of shooting guard.

Again, the idea of combo guard IOW no point guard. Does he need to do what he does? No. He has guys who can score on his team. Deng averages 17pts and Boozer averaged 19.5 last season in Utah. You realize that in FG% he was almost last on the team (only Korver and Bogans below him).

Quote:
He's in his first year. And really, when I say 'dominant' big coming out of college, I'm talking the Shaquille Oneal/ Tim Duncan instant domination type.
Oh so now you are talking instance numbers from big guys... You said "Great Big Men aren't coming INTO the NBA"; referring to them being great prior to arrival...

*I know I have to prefix this prior to posting... Shaq was a way better player than Cousins probably will ever be so no need to go that route. I am just talking straight numbers.
Shaq - Freshman Year at LSU - 13.9pts, 12reb, 3.5blk
Cousins - Only Year at Kentucky - 15.1pts, 9.8reb, 1.8blk

For instance, one site's take on his draft stock
"A man amongst boys at the college level, Cousins' combination of size, length and strength is simply unparalleled at this level of competition. There are only a handful of players that can even match up with him from a physical standpoint, and outside of a couple of ho-hum performances against the strongest big men he's faced (UConn and North Carolina), he's completely destroyed the slew of largely mediocre post players he's been forced to deal with."
From DraftExpress.com DraftExpressProfile: DeMarcus Cousins, Stats, Comparisons, and Outlook

The only question mark people had was his maturity level. Something Shaq had 3 years to get over. Granted he decided to stay which yes Cousins could have done (again, no need to go down that route). Again, loads of hype for him coming into the NBA = guess by analysts he will be a great big man.
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
Here let's have Pippen himself mention how easier it was to guard someone via handchecking, armbaring, etc.

YouTube - ‪Scottie pippen talks about new nba rules no hand checking & 90's defense was tougher than today‬‏

I've already seen that video. Didn't I mention earlier that Pippen said he'd foul out? Reality is, in Pippen's era you can play defense, in this one you can't. So a standout defender in an era where you can play defense, beats a standout defender in a pussified era.....in my opinion. Since we're talking about era as you've been adamant that these kinds of comparisons are tough given the differing rules they played under, we can only debate relative to era. And in my opinion, Scottie Pippen, under the rules of his era, was a better defender than Lebron James is, under the rules of this era. I cannot qualify that statement beyond saying that based off a subjective 'eye-test' of the individuals in question. Effectively Pippen played in a more physical era, and players had more means at their disposal to play defense. Lebron plays in a era where it's effectively a drive-thru to the basket for perimeter players. Breath too hard on someone....it's a foul. I'd call that 'defense' in the loosest sense of the word, certainly not the kind of defense in Pippen's era where you had to earn your way to the basket.


I did career averages on your original guys for the most part.

So what? The point is they were scoring point guards. I don't care if their career averages were 9+ assists. Point is they were also 20ppg scorers.....SCORING point guards playing primary roles on their teams. The fact that they were competent passers doesn't mean they weren't scoring point guards. Did John Stockton play the same kind of game as Gary Payton or Tim Hardaway? No...he didn't. By mere function of their roles as point guards, they set the table for others but they obviously were natural, prolific scorers and their scoring averages reflect that. Hell, Gary Payton has over 20,000 career points, and you're trying to argue that he isn't a scoring point guard?

Stockton was a 'pass-first' point guard, Payton, Isiah, Hardaway, Paul, Williams etc are scoring ones. If NBA history has shown you anything, there are all kinds of point guards, with various attributes and styles of play. You're just arguing for the hell of it at this point.


I don't see Westbrook ever averaging that

He's already averaging 8, in his third year. Hell, he averaged 8 in his second year. Getting another 2 assists per game is hardly a giant leap. Perhaps I should remind you( or likely you didn't know to begin with) that Westbrook was a shooting guard in college that is effectively learning the point guard role.... at the NBA level.......and he's already averaging 8 assists...and has been since his SECOND season. Oh boy.....

and he is on a team with loads of scorers.

Loads of scorers? Durant averages 27, Westbrook averages 22...Harden averages 12. Jeff Green is in Boston now... that's 3 guys in double digits. Further proof of your 'knowledge'( or rather, lack of). The only guy on that team he should be deferring to, is Durant. What, are you suggesting he should 'decrease' his scoring to get more shots for the likes of Ibaka and Kendrick Perkins? Westbrook's scoring, while I do think last year he tried to play the hero role a bit too much, is essential to the success of that team.

Does he need to do what he does? No. He has guys who can score on his team.

Cool, another post showing your lack of... You are out of your mind if you don't think Rose is BY FAR, the most talented scorer on that team. He's the only one who can break down a defense consistently, the only one who can create for himself and others at an elite level. The Bulls wouldn't be NEAR as successful as they are without his scoring. In fact, we saw a classic example of what happens when Rose doesn't put up big scoring numbers,when they played the Heat in the conference finals. Who stepped up big when Rose was contained?.........hmmmmm.......yeah exactly.


Deng averages 17pts

Deng is a complimentary scorer at best. He's not a player who's going to be the primary scorer on a team with championship aspirations. He provides complimentary scoring and tough perimeter defense.


and Boozer averaged 19.5 last season in Utah.

Boozer? Did you see this year's playoffs? I'd rather Taj Gibson over Boozer. At least he plays with some damn passion and doesn't play matador defense. He's beyond overrated.....Next.....


You realize that in FG% he was almost last on the team (only Korver and Bogans below him).

He's the one who's often taking the bail-out shots. And he's the one who takes the highest volume of shots. It's not surprising that his field goal percentage isn't super great. But hell, you act like he's shooting Allen Iverson numbers. In fact his 45% this year represents the lowest of his career, last year he was at 49%.

You also fail to take into account that he's become a dramatically more prolific 3pt shooter. His first two seasons, he made 32 combined 3's. This past year, 128. The fact that he's shooting a far greater number of long distance shots, is going to naturally lower his overall percentages. Read that slowly, because I know the logic will likely escape you.

Quick.... find a high volume perimeter scorer with that many made 3's that shoots a high percentage.For comparisons sake..... Kobe Bryant? 115 3's made....45% shooting.



Oh so now you are talking instance numbers from big guys...

Now? I've been referring to instant impact all along when I say great bigs coming into the NBA.

You said "Great Big Men aren't coming INTO the NBA"; referring to them being great prior to arrival...
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Great bigs aren't coming out of college..... great bigs aren't coming INTO the NBA. Any reasonable person can take everything I'm saying around those statements, put it in context, and come to the conclusion that I'm saying that few instantly dominant centers have come into the league in recent years. Are you clear now, or do you need me to break it down further, syllable by syllable?

Think about the dominant centers of the past 30 years to come into the NBA. Hakeem, Shaq, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing.... we'll throw Duncan into the mix as well as he's as much a center as a power forward. All of those guys were dominant bigs coming into the NBA, and dominated from the outset of their careers. So, again for clarity sake, when was the last Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan/Ewing/Robinson instant across the board impact bigman to enter the league? As I said before, they aren't coming out of college in droves, so it's little wonder we don't have many dominant centers( scoring-wise) at the moment. And again, if dominant bigs aren't coming INTO the league in big numbers, then its not simply a case of recent NBA rules restricting them from being dominant scorers.


*I know I have to prefix this prior to posting... Shaq was a way better player than Cousins probably will ever be so no need to go that route.

Well that's obvious so I don't know why you'd even bring it up. They came into the NBA with totally different expectations. Shaq was probably one of the most hyped rookies ever to enter the NBA back in 1992. My point is when was the last center/big-man of that caliber to enter the league and dominated right away. And you respond with Cousins....



Something Shaq had 3 years to get over.

Shaq was 20 when he came into the NBA. It's not like he was some mature, grizzled 23 year old coming into the league.



Again, loads of hype for him coming into the NBA = guess by analysts he will be a great big man.

Not nearly as much as Shaq/Oden/Duncan etc etc. A great big? Maybe. THE next great big? Hmmmmm.....
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Last edited by Roman77; 07-13-2011 at 08:14 AM..
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,947,075 times
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Breath too hard on someone....it's a foul. I'd call that 'defense' in the loosest sense of the word, certainly not the kind of defense in Pippen's era where you had to earn your way to the basket.
Again, been saying it the whole time.

Quote:
So what? The point is they were scoring point guards. I don't care if their career averages were 9+ assists. Point is they were also 20ppg scorers.....SCORING point guards playing primary roles on their teams. The fact that they were competent passers doesn't mean they weren't scoring point guards. Did John Stockton play the same kind of game as Gary Payton or Tim Hardaway? No...he didn't. By mere function of their roles as point guards, they set the table for others but they obviously were natural, prolific scorers and their scoring averages reflect that. Hell, Gary Payton has over 20,000 career points, and you're trying to argue that he isn't a scoring point guard?
So in other words, are you saying the PG never exist since only 1 or 2 guys make your list? Magic Johnson, i.e. the guy who people point out as the best PG, averaged 19.5 pts. So you would classify him as a scoring point guard as well, right?

Let me rephrase it for you based on your terminology... the 80s/90s guys you listed were better at dishing the ball than any of the new guys that play in the same PG position.

See PG to me means setting up your teammates. Assists are direct result of that. And while the 80s/90s guys scored, they also drew defenders and dished the ball to give their teammates better shot opportunities. Today's PGs are very limited to guys I listed prior to you.

Quote:
Loads of scorers? Durant averages 27, Westbrook averages 22...Harden averages 12. Jeff Green is in Boston now... that's 3 guys in double digits.
Durant/Westbrook averaged together half of the shots taken by the team. Of course, no one else looks like a scorer but it doesn't mean they aren't there. By the way Ibaka averaged 9.9pts (0.1 off ) and played from the bench for half the season behind Green. He shot 54.3%. Harden's numbers are coming from the bench too... who else is on the bench... a 42% 3 pt shooter by the name of Daequan Cook...

Quote:
You are out of your mind if you don't think Rose is BY FAR, the most talented scorer on that team. He's the only one who can break down a defense consistently, the only one who can create for himself and others at an elite level. The Bulls wouldn't be NEAR as successful as they are without his scoring. In fact, we saw a classic example of what happens when Rose doesn't put up big scoring numbers,when they played the Heat in the conference finals. Who stepped up big when Rose was contained?.........
He can break a defense consistently but he was contained in Miami... To bring everything back around, who mostly guarded Rose that series...could it have been Lebron James... why yes it was

All I stated was the Bulls could have won games without Rose scoring all those points. Rose is great at getting to the basket, no doubt, but finishing could be better. If he kicks out vs forcing the shot he could have really helped them in the playoffs. Instead during Miami, he forced shots and went 32.6% in those 4 losses. Given that amount of shots he took, this is a pretty bad number. Hell, he even apologized to his team during one of those games.

There are more videos like this, showing his terrible shot selections, including some non-clutch moments

YouTube - ‪MVP D-Rose CHOKES horribly vs the Heat in ECF Game 4‬‏

Quote:
when was the last Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan/Ewing/Robinson instant across the board impact bigman to enter the league?
Griffin - 2010

Quote:
Any reasonable person can take everything I'm saying around those statements, put it in context, and come to the conclusion that I'm saying that few instantly dominant centers have come into the league in recent years.
No need to get personal. How your text comes across is stating that there are no great big men coming from any source outside the NBA who are coming into the NBA. No where in that statement someone goes he is looking for a double double nba rookie beast of a big man.
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post


So in other words, are you saying the PG never exist since only 1 or 2 guys make your list?

Nope, that's not what I'm saying( sigh). You really have a comprehension issue. I've said, quite clearly, that all the point guards we've mentioned play the point differently. Rondo doesn't play like Paul, Stockton doesn't play like Payton, Kidd doesn't play like Rose, and so on and so on.

A scoring point guard isn't any more or less a point guard, than a pass first one. It's simply two different ways to play the position. And it's entirely dependent on the skills of the player, and the needs of the team. Rondo has his limits offensively, his best traits are passing and defending. Furthermore, the Celtics don't need him to fullfill a scoring role because you've already got Pierce, Garnett, and Allen capably assuming the main scoring burden. A guy like Gary Payton has excellent scoring skills, and that was a major part of his game. It doesn't mean he didn't set up teammates, as he did( 9 assists a game in his heyday). He was simply also a potent scorer to boot, and once Kemp left for Cleveland, he had to assume a larger scoring burden, the success of the Sonics depended on it.




Magic Johnson, i.e. the guy who people point out as the best PG, averaged 19.5 pts. So you would classify him as a scoring point guard as well, right?

Magic spent the first part of his career being a setup man when he had Kareem, with Worthy, Scott, etc running the wings. When Kareem retired, he took on more of a scoring role. Which is why he starting putting up 23 points around 1987. The great thing about Magic, is he had the skill and versatility to be a passer first, or a scorer. That's why people consider him one of the best to play.

Let me rephrase it for you based on your terminology... the 80s/90s guys you listed were better at dishing the ball than any of the new guys that play in the same PG position.

That's your interpretation of my terminology..and it's wrong( as usual). I said the guys I listed ( Isiah, Payton, Hardaway etc) were potent scorers but also competent passers. I have not said that the 80/90's guys were 'better' at doing so than the newer guys. A guy like Paul is a prolific scorer and passer, so is Deron Williams. Those guys at their best are easily on the same level as a Tim Hardaway or a Kevin Johnson when it comes to being great scorers AND setting up their teammates.

See PG to me means setting up your teammates. Assists are direct result of that.

That is one definition. But the guys I listed DID set up teammates....they just scored big as well. It seems as though you're under the impression that PGs can't, or rather shouldn't, score much. They should mainly set up teammates..... and that's it. The problem with that thinking is, many of the great point guards happened to be the team's best scorer as well. Payton was the best scorer on the Sonics, Isiah on the Pistons, Kevin Johnson on the Suns( prior to Barkley). To give you a current example, Chris Paul is the Hornets best scorer, so his scoring is crucial to that team's success. I'm not quite sure why this is so difficult to understand. Or perhaps the length of these posts have begun to make things hard to follow.

So the conundrum is trying to strike a balance between scoring themselves, and setting up their teammates.

Durant/Westbrook averaged together half of the shots taken by the team. Of course, no one else looks like a scorer but it doesn't mean they aren't there.

I think it's pretty clear that you put the ball in the hands of your best scorers, to give you the greatest chance at success. Durant and Westbrook, in that order, ARE the best scorers on that team. So logic would dictate that the lion's share of shots, go to them. Not all players are created equal....


By the way Ibaka averaged 9.9pts (0.1 off ) and played from the bench for half the season behind Green. He shot 54.3%. Harden's numbers are coming from the bench too... who else is on the bench... a 42% 3 pt shooter by the name of Daequan Cook...

And all the others average about 7 points and less. I'm not sure about your point about the bench. You do realize that a team has a starting line-up....and a bench right? This doesn't prove your point that they're 'loaded' with scorers.


He can break a defense consistently but he was contained in Miami... To bring everything back around, who mostly guarded Rose that series...could it have been Lebron James... why yes it was

First, Lebron defended Rose in spurts( mainly at the end of games). And second, it's a lot easier to stay in front of Rose when the Heat did an excellent job of packing the lane and denying his penetration. It's kinda funny... you think you have an 'ah ha gotcha' point,but you really.....didn't.

Rose is great at getting to the basket, no doubt, but finishing could be better.

That's another one for the 'this guy doesn't know what he's talking about' list. Rose is an EXCELLENT, SPECTACULAR, finisher at the basket.



Griffin - 2010

Ahhhhh, proof that the rules don't necessarily prevent a dominant big-man from being a good scorer. Wasn't that my argument all along? And that was Blake having lost a year due to injury. Blake's game is athletic based too, he could work on his fundamentals. But, that further proves my point. I said earlier that dominant bigs coming INTO the NBA is few and far between. You've given me 2 names....Blake Griffin and Demarcus Cousins. And the only one who was instantly dominant, is Griffin.




No need to get personal.

Please, both of us have been getting in little potshots the whole time. Drop the high horse attitude, you've made your share of 'little comments' too.


How your text comes across is stating that there are no great big men coming from any source outside the NBA who are coming into the NBA.

How it comes across...or how you personally read it.I'm not going to be drawn into a debate about whether it's my fault for not articulating myself better, or yours for not comprehending what's being said and picking out of my comments what you want to see, to make your counter-argument.

Either way I've made the position clear now.
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Old 07-13-2011, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
And all the others average about 7 points and less. I'm not sure about your point about the bench. You do realize that a team has a starting line-up....and a bench right? This doesn't prove your point that they're 'loaded' with scorers.
These guys average less than 30 minutes. This is what I mean by bench. Whether OKC uses them or not doesn't make them any less of a potential scorer.

Of course Durant and Westbrook are getting the call to shoot the ball but when it came down to it, what was their downfall in the playoffs...an out of control Russell Westbrook. Just saying.

Quote:
First, Lebron defended Rose in spurts( mainly at the end of games). And second, it's a lot easier to stay in front of Rose when the Heat did an excellent job of packing the lane and denying his penetration. It's kinda funny... you think you have an 'ah ha gotcha' point,but you really.....didn't.
Even more reason to pass it to your teammates...

Quote:
That's another one for the 'this guy doesn't know what he's talking about' list. Rose is an EXCELLENT, SPECTACULAR, finisher at the basket.
Tell that to the Heat. I can't remember the last time the MVP of the league tried their hardest and looked completely taken out of a series...

Quote:
I said earlier that dominant bigs coming INTO the NBA is few and far between.
If you really look at all the guys you listed, you would notice a pattern of around 3 years between Big Men, even up to Blake. Add in Brand, Yao, Gasol, Dirk, and Howard to the list to fill out the late 90s/00s.

Quote:
Please, both of us have been getting in little potshots the whole time. Drop the high horse attitude, you've made your share of 'little comments' too.
Quote me. I kept the talk to Basketball points. Nothing beyond.
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Old 07-14-2011, 04:51 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
These guys average less than 30 minutes. This is what I mean by bench. Whether OKC uses them or not doesn't make them any less of a potential scorer.

Where your logic falls down is that you could say this of any team. You said a team 'loaded with scorers'. I guess most teams, then, are loaded with scorers. Most of them just happen to be sitting on the bench.


what was their downfall in the playoffs...an out of control Russell Westbrook. Just saying.

I already said Westbrook played the hero too much. But do you think that Ibaka would have led them past the Mavericks if he passed more to him? Or one of the other 7 ppg scorers on the bench? And for the record, Westbrook alone is not the cause of OKC losing to Dallas. If anything, it's more that he wasn't deferring enough to Durant, not that he wasn't passing enough to the 7ppg guys riding the bench. If you hadn't noticed, the Mavericks are currently the best team in the NBA.



Even more reason to pass it to your teammates...

Soooo, if Rose, the best scorer on the team was being contained, you're saying that the less talented players, who the Heat were also putting the clamps on, would have done the trick? You're right, the only reason the Bulls didn't beat the Heat, was because he didn't pass enough to Kyle Korver and Keith Bogans. Who else on the Bulls, if not Rose, could have broken down the Heat defense? After game 1, the Heat didn't let ANYONE get open shots, which is why the Bulls never won another game that series.



Tell that to the Heat. I can't remember the last time the MVP of the league tried their hardest and looked completely taken out of a series...

Dirk, 2007 Playoffs vs Warriors...... Lebron 2010 playoffs vs Boston....Oh scratch that....Lebron wasn't trying his hardest, was he? He just quit....

And its clear you don't watch much Bulls basketball. You take one example, versus the Heat, to form an opinion of Rose's finishing ability, when he spent an ENTIRE season showing his finishing skills at the basket. Talk about a strawman argument.



If you really look at all the guys you listed, you would notice a pattern of around 3 years between Big Men, even up to Blake. Add in Brand, Yao, Gasol, Dirk, and Howard to the list to fill out the late 90s/00s.

Yao came into the NBA in 2002, wasn't an instantly dominant force. Calling Gasol one as a rookie is a big stretch, in fact calling him one now is a bit of a stretch too, he came into the NBA in 2001. Dirk averaged 8 points his rookie season and came into the NBA in 1999. Howard wasn't instantly dominant, came into the NBA in 2004. I've already clarified what I meant by instant impact across the board bigs. NONE of those who you listed above fulfill that description. Even Blake, who came into the league in 2009, isn't a defensive presence. So I can't call him 'across the board' dominant.

So again, this proves that GREAT BIGMEN, COMING INTO THE NBA DOMINANT BEFORE ENTERING THE LEAGUE, AND MAKING AN IMMEDIATE ACROSS THE BOARD IMPACT, ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN NOWADAYS.

So again, point out the last center on the level of Shaq/ Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson/Duncan to enter the league and dominate on offense and defense right away. I can wait.......



Quote me. I kept the talk to Basketball points. Nothing beyond.

Please..... we've both been making comments to the effect 'you don't know what you're talking about' or other little sarcastic remarks. I'm not going back to ALL your prior posts just to find a particular quip. Get over it.... in fact the comment that I made that you said 'don't get personal' to:


"Any reasonable person can take everything I'm saying around those statements, put it in context, and come to the conclusion that I'm saying that few instantly dominant centers have come into the league in recent years. Are you clear now, or do you need me to break it down further, syllable by syllable?"


..... wasn't even a personal comment or attack. If you can't handle the discussion and want to start playing the hyper-sensitive role, that's your problem. As you said before, cry me a river.
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