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Old 07-22-2011, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,179,162 times
Reputation: 2726

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Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
And this proves Josh Smith is as good a defender as Michael Cooper how exactly? Steals and blocks aren't the tell-all indicator of someone who would shut down a high scoring opposing player.

Career steals per game
John Stockton 2.2
Magic Johnson 1.9
Charles Barkley 1.5
Josh Smith 1.3
Bruce Bowen 0.8
Dennis Rodman 0.7

Does that seem about the order you would rate those defenders in ability to be considered a good defensive player? You seem fixated on this steals statistic, using it in an attempt to prove Smith vs. Cooper or Roundfield, does using that stat make sense looking at that list above? Was Stockton or Magic a better defensive player than Josh Smith, Bruce Bowen, and Dennis Rodman? Blocks too, have great front court one-on-one defensive players Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, Dennis Rodman ever averaged a block a game in any season? Amare Stoudemire has averaged 2 per game and that guy gets burned by just being either mentally out of the play or laziness than most, someone like Bird would eat him alive.
Another name in the mix, Shawn marion.

1500 career steals in 900 games. Michael Cooper, 1033 steals in 873 games.

With defense, some players have a lot of intangibles that don't show up in statistics...i.e. dennis rodman. Smith has better numbers that a lot of those guys listed, thats got to count for something. And he plays for a team that barely gets out of the 1st round of the playoffs.

The typical small forward in the 80's was like Mark Aquirre. The mark aquirre of the 2000's is more like Carmelo Anthony or Marion. I wonder what the difference in vertical leap is, between your typical 1985 or 88 small forward, and today.
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Old 07-22-2011, 06:11 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,878,906 times
Reputation: 1802
It's funny how athleticism is being equated to great defense in this thread. Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, and Shane Battier, who were hardly super athletes, are/were the preeminent perimeter defenders of the past decade. You can throw names like Trenton Hassell, James Posey, into the mix as well( maybe a few others) None of them had outstanding vertical leaps, were overly lengthy, or exceptionally fast. Simply a good knowledge of playing angles, anticipation, fundamentally sound footwork. And half the battle is having a 'desire' to play defense. There are plenty of players today with the physical tools to be an elite defender, but not the heart or desire.
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:03 PM
 
8,266 posts, read 10,707,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
Another name in the mix, Shawn marion.

1500 career steals in 900 games. Michael Cooper, 1033 steals in 873 games.
Again the fixation with steals as a measure of how good a one-on-one defender a player was. So again I'll ask you to rank the following from previous post in order of how well they'd guard Larry Bird:

Career steals per game
John Stockton 2.2
Magic Johnson 1.9
Charles Barkley 1.5
Josh Smith 1.3
Bruce Bowen 0.8
Dennis Rodman 0.7
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:10 PM
 
8,266 posts, read 10,707,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
Look at a guy like Nate Robinson. How many guys who were 5'9 or 5'10, had his strength in the 80's?
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Old 07-22-2011, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,179,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slackjaw View Post
Again the fixation with steals as a measure of how good a one-on-one defender a player was. So again I'll ask you to rank the following from previous post in order of how well they'd guard Larry Bird:

Career steals per game
John Stockton 2.2
Magic Johnson 1.9
Charles Barkley 1.5
Josh Smith 1.3
Bruce Bowen 0.8
Dennis Rodman 0.7
Here's that list from a few pages back.

Let's see who Bird had to play against in the early 80s:

Adrian Dantley
Alex English
Dominique Wilkins
Mark Aguirre
Kiki Vandeweghe
John Drew
Kelly Tripucka
Tom Chambers
Walter Davis
Scott Wedman
Bernard King
Albert King
Jay Vincent
Purvis Short
Jamaal Wilkes
Thurl Bailey
Marques Johnson
Mike Mitchell
Orlando Woolrdige
Dale Ellis
Eddie Johnson
Julius Erving
Dennis Rodman
Michael Cooper
Paul Pressey

I didnt have time to run through all of them, but I think its interesting that smith has better numbers in his first 7 seasons than many of them. But somehow that doesn't translate into defense. How can you be the youngest player in league history to get 1,000 blocks...but not be good defensively?? Or have any defensive promise.

The players on that list of steals were all good defensively. Rodman was one of the best in league history. He had a will for defense and a defensive IQ thats probably the best in the last 20-25 years.

I'd say, stockton, magic a tie. I'd say barkley and bowen a wash, barkley could read the floor and anticipate steals. Who was like shane battier in the 80's?

Shane Battier vs Bird, that would be a great matchup. Maybe a different way of looking at it, who's knocked Kobe off his game. Would that translate to Bird?
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:21 PM
 
8,266 posts, read 10,707,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
The players on that list of steals were all good defensively.
No, they weren't. Magic a good defender? No.

Quote:
Rodman was one of the best in league history. He had a will for defense and a defensive IQ thats probably the best in the last 20-25 years.
So how could this be? Steals and blocks are so important to you in judging a defender since you keep going back to Josh Smith's gaudy numbers and noting that they compare favorably with whoever from the 80s. Rodman averaged 0.7 and 0.6, doesn't make sense.

Quote:
I'd say, stockton, magic a tie. I'd say barkley and bowen a wash, barkley could read the floor and anticipate steals.
This is crazy. Barkley gambled a lot, he wasn't a good one-on-one defender. Maybe he could have been if he'd put his mind to it, who knows, but as far as reputation as defensive stopper he wasn't a wash with Bruce Bowen (5x all-defensive 1st team, 3x all-defensive 2nd team) at all. Barkley was 0x all defensive anything.

Quote:
Shane Battier vs Bird, that would be a great matchup.
Battier 1.1 spg, 1.0 bpg. Wait, that isn't as good Josh Smith.

Last edited by slackjaw; 07-22-2011 at 07:34 PM..
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:31 PM
 
8,266 posts, read 10,707,875 times
Reputation: 4769
Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
why do people keep bringing up JOSH SMITH? wtf has josh smith ever done of any significance except be a lazy bum that is winded by the 4th quarter. is he supposed to be an "elite defender" lol
josh smith is a bum. i'd sooner bring up iguodola in an argument than JOSH SMITH who is like the 3rd option on his team.
I honestly don't understand it either. Joe Johnson is the defensive stopper on the Hawks.

Josh Smith is solid, an amazing shot blocker, but he's hardly a shut-down defensive player and to compare him to Michael Cooper in that regard is insane.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:47 PM
 
1,807 posts, read 2,889,596 times
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lol you're not serious are you... mugsy bogues is nowhere near the athlete robinson is, and nowhere near as strong. never was.
stop it.
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,179,162 times
Reputation: 2726
Defense is very hard to quantify with precision.

-Look at Shane Battier vs Kobe in the playoffs. Remember the hand in the face every time? That would never show up in a box score. Is there anyone in the league who could do quite what Battier did?

-Barkley was a gambler, but he had foot speed and a sense of the floor (i.e. leading to steals). I think he was a pretty good defender for his size.

-Paul Pressey made NBA all defensive first team in 1985 and 86. Do you think he would do as well today?

Look at the names in the 80's who made it to NBA all defensive first or second team....

Bobby Jones
Roundfield
Pressey
Cooper
Sidney Moncrief
Rodney McCray?

(Which of these guys could guard Bird under the basket??)

In the late 80's, larry nance and rodman. Imagine Battier in the 80's against those guys? Lebron gets ragged on (rightly so to some degree), but he's already made 3x defensive first team. What about Kirilenko?
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Old 07-23-2011, 06:33 AM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,163 posts, read 13,182,426 times
Reputation: 2488
Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
lol you're not serious are you... mugsy bogues is nowhere near the athlete robinson is, and nowhere near as strong. never was.
stop it.
What? Mugsy was a great defender and MUCH QUICKER than Nate.
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