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Old 01-03-2014, 10:23 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,041,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneOnegin View Post
2010-2011 Love played 73 games and the T-Wolves won 17 games. 2011-2012 Love played 55 games and the T-Wolves won 26 games. 2012-2013 Love played 18 games and they won 31.

Remove Lebron from the Cavs and they went from 61 wins to 19 wins.

Garnett won 50+ games 4 times in Minnesota with crap teams.

When is Love going to start impacting the win/loss column like Garnett and Lebron?
Yeah, I've heard this argument used a lot against Love. I don't get it.

We are talking about a guy that faces elite basketball players every night. He is #1 in rebounding, #2 in points and #3 in PER. I believe we can all agree the scoring and rebounding is good...and he dies a lot if it.

If you could tell me the Wolves are losing by 20 every night and 25% of his stats come during garbage time...I could see the point.

The Wolves are 16-16 now....only a few games out of the 8th spot in the west. Is it possible that the Wolves would be the 3rd best team in the east? What would their record be?

And who's talking about the Cavs? That team's collapse isn't surprising. What happens if we take Dirk off the 2011 Mavs or Iverson off the Sixers team that made the finals?

It's sort of ironic that Lebron ended up getting beat in 2011 by a team using the same template as Cleveland. One MVP level player surrounded by mostly role players.

Lebron wasnt all that left the Cavs either. Different coach, different offensive system, Danny Ferry resigned as GM, Shaq left, Ilgauskas left, Delonte West left, Mo Williams was traded and several key players were injured. Just not the same team - if you were conducting a science experiment, you would fail for not controlling all variables. It's hard to expect all of that to come together and do well.

Cavs leaders in minutes:

2011 - JJ Hickson, Ramon Sessions, Anthony Parker, Daniel Gibson, Antwan Jamison, Ryan Hollins

2010 - Lebron James, Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Anderson Varejao, JJ Hickson, Delonte West, Shaq/Ilgauskas

JJ Hickson led the '11 Cavs in minutes!! No wonder they won 19 games.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:04 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
13,343 posts, read 17,395,875 times
Reputation: 19654
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Yeah, I've heard this argument used a lot against Love. I don't get it.

We are talking about a guy that faces elite basketball players every night. He is #1 in rebounding, #2 in points and #3 in PER. I believe we can all agree the scoring and rebounding is good...and he dies a lot if it.

Ok, but you don't seem to have a good reason why the Wolves win more games w/o Love in the lineup than with him in it. Is it mere coincidence? Is it because the team relies on him too much when he's in the lineup?
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Old 01-11-2014, 01:32 AM
 
6,981 posts, read 4,454,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
Just a question that always bubbled in my mind. I always try to put the players of the past and see if they would still be all time greats. Obviously this is a subjective exercise as everyone will feel differently about different players. Here are my thoughts;

Magic Johnson: I think he would still be an all time great today. A great passer is always relevant, no matter what era. And the thing about point guards is that you dont have to be the most athletic to thrive. Look at Steve Nash. He is isnt the quickest point guard around yet he had dominated for a few years. Add in the fact that his height advantage gave him the mismatch even today and I think he would be fine.

Michael Jordan: Yep, he would still dominate. Nuff said.

Isaiah Thomas: See Magic above

John Stockton: Ditto

Larry Bird: Here is the one guy who I think would struggle today. I watch old tape of him on Youtube and he looks slow even back then. No quickness, no hops, just a deadly jumpshot...sorry to say but I think he would get eaten up today. Do you see him scoring 30 against Josh Smith, Lebron, Young KG, Bruce Bowen, Young Artest...the list goes on and on...plus who would he guard on defense??? I see him being at best Peja Stojacovic with balls. But even Peja could only succeed on a team with multiple other options like the Kings had with Webber and Bibby. Make Peja the franchise? disaster. I think Bird got lucky that the era he played in didnt have a whole lot of athletic players yet...hell even his gay lover Bill Simmons admitted it. So what do you guys think?
He would just be an average player today, the guys are much more athletic in today's game.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:42 AM
 
293 posts, read 376,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wall st kid View Post
He would just be an average player today, the guys are much more athletic in today's game.
Bird's greatness had nothing to do with athleticism. He could shoot, pass, rebound and had more heart than two of today's NBA players. He was a real man not a cry baby (Andrew Bynum). The league was a lot rougher back when Bird played as well.
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:34 PM
 
2,995 posts, read 2,232,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane1976 View Post
Bird's greatness had nothing to do with athleticism. He could shoot, pass, rebound and had more heart than two of today's NBA players. He was a real man not a cry baby (Andrew Bynum). The league was a lot rougher back when Bird played as well.
And it was equally rough if not rougher when Rick Barry played.

Both Bird and Barry would be stars in today's game.
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Old 11-28-2014, 02:35 PM
 
4 posts, read 2,822 times
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Default Bird is best...

"Larry Bird: Here is the one guy who I think would struggle today. I watch old tape of him on Youtube and he looks slow even back then. No quickness, no hops, just a deadly jumpshot...sorry to say but I think he would get eaten up today. Do you see him scoring 30 against Josh Smith, Lebron, Young KG, Bruce Bowen, Young Artest...the list goes on and on...plus who would he guard on defense??? I see him being at best Peja Stojacovic with balls. But even Peja could only succeed on a team with multiple other options like the Kings had with Webber and Bibby. Make Peja the franchise? disaster. I think Bird got lucky that the era he played in didnt have a whole lot of athletic players yet...hell even his gay lover Bill Simmons admitted it. So what do you guys think?"

i think you never saw him play...

Bird was the best basketball player ever... if you were a GM with all players available in their prime - Bird is #1 pick.

Why? ... best shooter ever... both pure shooter, and shot creation, ... clutch. (90, 50, 40 were fairly routine). Bird would pass to himself off the backboard.

the best defender from all opponent team guarded Bird... to no avail (see, Cooper, Rodman, Pippen, Jordan. etc.).

he could have scored 50 or more every game... but he was the quarterback (all plays went thru Bird) and more consumed with team play/success. an easy 2 from Parrish or McHale counted just as much...

it would be hard to say anyone was a better passer than Bird... Magic is up there.

Bird was a tremendous rebounder... averaging near 10 a game (playoffs too).

Defense? Bird gets knocked... wrongly... he played team defense always... he knew where his teammates were... he knew the shooter's moves... he altered shots with his positioning, blocked shots and swiped the ball... did you ever see Bird's defense against MJ? (especially 4th quarter)...

if someone had said Wilt is best player... (he is)... a smart GM takes Russell... but as great as Russ was... Bird had a much better offensive game than Russ...

Bird plays in any era... precisely because he did not rely merely on pure athleticism.

no weakness in his game... high basketball IQ (like Einstein leading a math class).
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Old 11-28-2014, 02:40 PM
 
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Michael Cooper remembers the first time he was ever asked to guard Larry Bird one-on-one for a prolonged stretch. The date was January 18, 1981, and the Lakers traveled to the Boston Garden to face the hated Celtics. At the time, Cooper was feeling awfully good about himself. With Magic Johnson sidelined with an injury, he was a fixture in the starting lineup, right alongside stars like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Jamaal Wilkes and Norm Nixon. Cooper stood as a key cog on basketball's best team and, he says, "I was as cocky and confident as I'd ever been."
To Cooper, Larry Bird was still merely larry bird (lowercase intended) -- an overrated Great White Hype who captured a nation's imagination more for his pigmentation than his playing ability. Cooper had seen it all before. Doug Collins. [URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3601/index.html"]Mike Dunleavy[/URL]. Tom McMillen. Mike O'Koren. White guys came, white guys went. Larry Bird? Who the hell was scared of Lar--
"I'm getting ready to wear your f----- ass out."
The words were uttered softly. Almost in a whisper. Had the white boy just spoken in such a manner to Michael Cooper? Had he really said such a thing? Barely two minutes had passed in the opening quarter and Bird was already slinging yang.
"Bring it, mother------," replied Cooper, hardly a linguistic wallflower. "Bring it."

Larry Bird brought it. Celtics guard Nate Archibald dribbled the ball down the court. Cooper followed Bird toward the top of the key -- "Larry's standing there talking to me, talking to me. Nonstop talking" -- then shadowed him as he walked down the lane and circled around a Robert Parish pick. "About to wear your ass out," Bird said. "Wear ... it ... out ... " Bird pushed off Cooper. Cooper pushed off Bird. "Bring it," the Laker said. "C'mon, f----- ... "
Bird jumped back, caught a pass from Johnson. "I'm still here, m-----------," Cooper said, grabbing a handful of Bird's green-and-white jersey. "I'm still here." Abdul-Jabbar, guarding Parish, stepped off his man to help. Bird jumped to shoot, and Cooper lunged toward him -- certain he was about to block the shot.
Then, quick as a dragonfly, Bird somehow brought the ball down and wrapped it around to a wide-open Parish. "I still have no idea how he got the ball to him," said Cooper, "because my hands are up in the air, Kareem is coming out -- and the only way he could have gotten it to him was to lob it over the top. But he didn't lob it over the top. I'm still confused." Cooper spun, just in time to see Parish slam the basketball through the hoop.
He looked back toward Bird, who smirked. "Wearing your ass out, m-----------," he said. "Wearing it out. ... "

Those words stuck with Michael Cooper. That moment stuck with Michael Cooper. Throughout his first eight-plus NBA seasons, he had been assigned to guard players of all shapes, sizes and builds. One night he might find himself standing before Utah's Rickey Green, the league's fastest point guard. The next night, it could be Denver center Dan Issel. Or Milwaukee small forward Junior Bridgeman. Or Knicks shooting guard Michael Ray Richardson. "He was worthy of Defensive Player of the Year every year," said Greg Ballard, the Golden State forward. "He was long, fast, stronger than you'd think. Coop was made for defense."
Although the Magic Johnson-Larry Bird connection was forever discussed and hyped, it was Cooper who felt tied to the Celtics star. He obsessed over Bird's moves, over his thinking, over his patterns and tendencies. If a Celtic game was televised, Cooper watched, his eyes glued to number 33. He looked toward nights against Boston as one would a wedding. It was Michael Cooper's moment.
"Covering Larry -- that meant everything to me," he said. "People said he was overrated ... f---, no. If anything, he was underrated. What made him so good was you didn't just have to worry about his scoring. You had to worry about this guy's defense, his passing, his ability to save balls from going out of bounds, his ability to set picks and get people open. Larry could beat you in many ways. And he was the hardest player for me to play against, because you had to guard against all those things. Most players are one- or two-dimensional. Larry was ten-dimensional."
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Old 11-28-2014, 02:43 PM
 
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that's exactly what the rest of the NBA thought of Bird too... then they found out the truth when he beat them...
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Old 11-28-2014, 02:45 PM
 
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"Of all the people I play against, the only one I truly fear is Larry Bird."--Magic Johnson
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Old 12-01-2014, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,264,314 times
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Bird would almost certainly be more dominant today than he was in the 80's. When he started his NBA career, the 3 pt. shot had just been enacted. Coaches didn't yet know how to use it. Bird averaged under 100 3 pt shots his first five seasons, and the most he took was 237 in 1987. Stephan Curry has taken over 600 3 pt shots the past 2 years.
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