U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-18-2011, 11:13 AM
 
52,130 posts, read 41,961,372 times
Reputation: 32540

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Dominique Wilkins would stand out today athletically....the guy was a freakin beast( and he's a 9th/10th man on the team I drafted a few weeks ago ). All the great athletes like Jordan, Wilkins, Drexler from 20 years ago would still drop jaws today. While there may be *more* athletic players today, the very best athletes I mentioned above would still be great in this era. Prime Shawn Kemp? Come on now....that guy was SICK!!
Yeah, I posted all the other top 3's from Birds era and they were all tall, athletic as heck guys but people claimed that Nique was athletic etc. which we all know is crazy talk by kids without access to youtube apparantly.

Bird utterly abused a young Worthy for finals MVP in 1984.

I'd point out the NBA for a while went for athletics over skill. So much so that guys have actually extended their careers solely by being able to hit open 15-17footers because many young guys can't. Bird would feast at the FT line off of all the guys stupidly leaving their feet to try to block his dead-eye and quick release. It would be funny to watch.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-18-2011, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,890,180 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Yeah, I posted all the other top 3's from Birds era and they were all tall, athletic as heck guys but people claimed that Nique was athletic etc. which we all know is crazy talk by kids without access to youtube apparantly.

Bird utterly abused a young Worthy for finals MVP in 1984.

I'd point out the NBA for a while went for athletics over skill. So much so that guys have actually extended their careers solely by being able to hit open 15-17footers because many young guys can't. Bird would feast at the FT line off of all the guys stupidly leaving their feet to try to block his dead-eye and quick release. It would be funny to watch.
Problem is, we've got an entire generation of new basketball fans in the past decade who've grown up watching the and-1 era of fancy dribbling and dunk contest with guys wearing superman outfits and jumping over cars, and think that Basketball is better today because everyone can jump from the free throw line. The 80's and 90's was probably a peak period where there was a nice balance of fundamentals, teamplay and athleticism.

I think the 2000's * generally speaking * has ventured more towards the athletic side of the equation. Who are the prime players today? Lebron? Lacks fundamentals. Wade? Lacks certain fundamentals which makes him turnover prone. Howard?( this is sure to bring Ncospus99 out of the woodworks).... lacking in fundamentals. Now look at guys like Dirk, Kobe, Nash, Kidd, Duncan...stars whose games are built on solid fundamental principles, allowing them to be effective even as they age into their 30's.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2011, 12:44 PM
 
52,130 posts, read 41,961,372 times
Reputation: 32540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Problem is, we've got an entire generation of new basketball fans in the past decade who've grown up watching the and-1 era of fancy dribbling and dunk contest with guys wearing superman outfits and jumping over cars, and think that Basketball is better today because everyone can jump from the free throw line. The 80's and 90's was probably a peak period where there was a nice balance of fundamentals, teamplay and athleticism.

I think the 2000's * generally speaking * has ventured more towards the athletic side of the equation. Who are the prime players today? Lebron? Lacks fundamentals. Wade? Lacks certain fundamentals which makes him turnover prone. Howard?( this is sure to bring Ncospus99 out of the woodworks).... lacking in fundamentals. Now look at guys like Dirk, Kobe, Nash, Kidd, Duncan...stars whose games are built on solid fundamental principles, allowing them to be effective even as they age into their 30's.
In fairness, not ALL of those guys were as fundamentally solid as they would eventually become. (See young kobe vs. old kobe and yes....the same is true of Dirk too) A 26yo D. Howard whom has improved by leaps and bounds hasn't peaked yet. Even Jordan took until his mid-late 20's to reach his peak.

I think through numerous examples we have shown that Bird did just fine against guys that were just as athletic as the guys playing today. This myth is busted.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2011, 12:46 PM
 
20,976 posts, read 16,312,844 times
Reputation: 10270
Absolutely.

Maybe even more so.

The NBA seriously lacks pure shooters.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2011, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,890,180 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
In fairness, not ALL of those guys were as fundamentally solid as they would eventually become. (See young kobe vs. old kobe and yes....the same is true of Dirk too) A 26yo D. Howard whom has improved by leaps and bounds hasn't peaked yet. Even Jordan took until his mid-late 20's to reach his peak.
True, but Kobe was pretty sound fundamentally by around his 7th-8th year, in comparison to Lebron and Howard( notice all out of high school) and even Wade. Jordan, by the time he started winning titles, fundamentally was solid...that was around year 7. Though Tex Winters swears he never learned how to do a proper chest pass.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2011, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,694 posts, read 2,481,899 times
Reputation: 2722
OK I'm back. Well I can see that there are basically two groups opposed to each other; those who feel that Bird would have been just as lethal today, and people like me who feel he would have been horribly exposed in today's NBA. Well I'm not going to change anyone's minds so I'll leave it at that.

To the Bird supporters...I just dont see it. I'm sorry. The one reason y'all keep giving me is Bird's "high basketball IQ" which implies that today's NBA guys are just big dumb brutes who wouldnt have a clue how to defend Bird...and there I think you are sorely mistaken. Any decent NBA coaching staff (fairly few I know but still) would be able to gameplan to stop him. I would just take Lebron or Artest, or whoever, and tell him to "sit in Bird's shirt" and then force Bird to find another way to beat you...logically the fallback would be Bird driving to the basket...his slow butt wont beat LBJ off the dribble , or any decent small forward today. In the 80s, if Bird's jumper wasnt falling, he would go down low and post up...well I would LOVE to see how he would post up LBJ...dont see that happening for some reason.

People also talk about the fact that Bird could make the 15 footer...again dont you think today's teams are smart enough to know not to give him that??? Simply put today, Bird would be forced to go to the basket every play...NEVER LEFT OPEN ON THE PERIMETER...I just dont see what his fall back options would be...and for all those still drooling over his nice jumper...well there's a reason why excellent jumpshooters like Cardinal, JJ Redick, Danny Morrison and others come off the bench...the late Ralph Wiley once said "In the NBA today, the question is not whether or not you can shoot the ball...no the question is can you get your shot off against NBA defenders"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2011, 02:42 PM
 
9,034 posts, read 16,471,250 times
Reputation: 6827
My advice - watch basketball

Better yet - play the game competatively and then you could gain some understanding

Gain an appreciation for spacing, foot work, release, etc

The fact you even mention a guy like Brian Cardinal & Larry Bird in the same sentance is astounding ... but then again, I guess you are going for the quick & easy comparison........

None of those guys have the ability that bird had - you speak like teams back then didn't gameplan to try and stop him and that there weren't good defenders or something .... he still torched them.

You blanket him too hard he'll either hit a teamate or get you to foul him ... back off to much and you get a quick jumper in your face

You also act like there weren't guys who played tremendous defense back then either ... guys like Bobby Jones, Dan Roundfield, Michael Cooper, Buck Williams, Larry Nance, etc

Nance especially is one of those guys who was tall, athletic, could defend and you had to account for him on the offensive side as well .... another one of those 80s mirages that apparently didn't exist

Not to mention that Jordan character that came in during the mid-80s.........

There were also gritty guys like Bill Laimbeer, Moses Malone, etc

Not to mention that Barkley guy - Rodman, etc
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2011, 03:31 PM
JL
 
7,355 posts, read 11,915,831 times
Reputation: 7198
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
OK I'm back. Well I can see that there are basically two groups opposed to each other; those who feel that Bird would have been just as lethal today, and people like me who feel he would have been horribly exposed in today's NBA. Well I'm not going to change anyone's minds so I'll leave it at that.

To the Bird supporters...I just dont see it. I'm sorry. The one reason y'all keep giving me is Bird's "high basketball IQ" which implies that today's NBA guys are just big dumb brutes who wouldnt have a clue how to defend Bird...and there I think you are sorely mistaken. Any decent NBA coaching staff (fairly few I know but still) would be able to gameplan to stop him. I would just take Lebron or Artest, or whoever, and tell him to "sit in Bird's shirt" and then force Bird to find another way to beat you...logically the fallback would be Bird driving to the basket...his slow butt wont beat LBJ off the dribble , or any decent small forward today. In the 80s, if Bird's jumper wasnt falling, he would go down low and post up...well I would LOVE to see how he would post up LBJ...dont see that happening for some reason.

People also talk about the fact that Bird could make the 15 footer...again dont you think today's teams are smart enough to know not to give him that??? Simply put today, Bird would be forced to go to the basket every play...NEVER LEFT OPEN ON THE PERIMETER...I just dont see what his fall back options would be...and for all those still drooling over his nice jumper...well there's a reason why excellent jumpshooters like Cardinal, JJ Redick, Danny Morrison and others come off the bench...the late Ralph Wiley once said "In the NBA today, the question is not whether or not you can shoot the ball...no the question is can you get your shot off against NBA defenders"
You don't think the players back then knew about Bird's shooting? yet he was still able to get shots off...how is it that after playing 15 yrs did opposing teams not find a way to stop Bird from getting jumpers off and posting up other players? those teams must be really stupid right? Bird uses his body well against bigger players keeping them off balance. He was alot quicker than what he was given credit for. He also knew where on the court to be at in order to have the best position to get an easier basket. I could go on and on about stuff that doesn't show up in the stats. Also, if you watch basketball you would see that teams can setup plays where someone can run through screens, confusing defenders while on the move, curls around opposing players, etc. it just takes a slim opening for Bird to release that jump shot. you seem to think that Bird is stupid enough to just run to an open area while letting his defender chase him unimpeded all the time...

Check out the first video at the 2:13 mark to see how one play can get Bird open. Not rocket science.


‪Red, Bird, DJ, Parish, Ralph Sampson 1985‬‏ - YouTube


You can see it isn't so easy to stop Bird from getting his shot off even with a hand in his face.

‪Larry Bird the best ever‬‏ - YouTube

Last edited by JL; 07-18-2011 at 04:30 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2011, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,890,180 times
Reputation: 1802
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL View Post
You don't think the players back then knew about Bird's shooting? yet he was still able to get shots off...

Bingo....end of thread( along with Finger Laker's post-WELL said).

Here's the other thing that's been mentioned in addition to 'IQ'.....skills and fundamentals. Bird had an abundance of both. Now the fact that I've seen players like Adam Morrison and J.J Redick raised here, in a manner to suggest that these players are in any way comparable to Bird.......... I.....I gotta exit this thread. Phew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfU39BOgxyw


That's Bird being defended by......Dennis Rodman.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-18-2011, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
2,884 posts, read 5,189,856 times
Reputation: 2731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
^^^^

However, remember...these are the guys questioning the athleticism of Nique....whom most people know was pretty much up there with Jordan in terms of athleticism.

Pictures, you tube footage etc. are just ignored.
I never questioned the athleticism of Nique.

-The real issue is, players now have much better coordination and grace and ball handling ability, being 6'8, 240 or 6'8 260, like Lebron. They have more football like qualities...i.e, being a wide reciever, or being like a defensive end.

-Bird played the bulk of his career, 80-88, in a totally different era. Moses Malone, Nance, Buck Williams were great defenders, but they had no where near the speed or agility of todays guys. At 2:07 on the bottom video, it shows him diving for the ball. Who would win the loose ball now? It would be no contest.

-Bird wasn't stupid and he had an incredible IQ. But I picture your typical forward guarding Bird in the 80's. Or picture J Smith, Lebron, etc. Somehow I think he would be thrown more off balance by these big guys now. Do you think he'd get in trouble holding the ball more? Or being double teamed?

How is he going to see Parrish or McHale or Ainge or DJ when he's got J smith in his face with some gigantic 7' foot or 7'3 wingspan? Don't you think that would cause problems. I don't think Bird would have free reign over the basketball court now, like he did in the 80's.

How many guys now could catch up with Bird off a screen?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top