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Old 07-18-2011, 05:39 PM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,419,733 times
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No - I really don't ..... also, you don't catch up to guys off screens ... if you fall behind you are done ... the shot is off or the play is beyond you, that is if someone actually knows how to use their screen (many don't - bird absolutely did)

Lebron is a marvel, will be one of the best players ever and is an anamoly even in this era ... it's not like Bird would face a Lebron every night

Also keep in mind a lot of these athletic guys can't play a lick of defense and have very little court awareness (carmelo anthony couldn't defend bird - not even close)

Bird would still match up with guys like this for many nights:

NBA Depth Chart - National Basketball Association - ESPN

There is no one on cleveland, denver, golden state, houston, indiana (even as much as I like granger), the clippers, grizzlies, milwaukee, NJ, NY, Orlando, Phoenix, Sacramento, San Antonio, Toronto, Utah or Washington that could check him that would play real minutes (that's 17 teams in the league) ...... especially if you take into context the talent Bird had around him as well

You had a legit center who you needed to account for ..... nothing amazing, but a solid player who would hurt you if not respected ...... McHale would abuse most on the block and if you have a defender with good height & size you better check him

Throw in Bird you have 3 guys in the starting lineup going 6'9" on up and all 3 can play and space the court

Now add a PG that knows what they are doing and you have a very dangerous situation

If you wanted to make an argument I could see saying that Bird would be a different player with different teamates (as mentioned earlier in the thread) .... but I don't think his results would be that much different.

On the offensive side you get guys who are taller & longer that have stretched their games out .... Bird was one of the first to really be such a dangerous threat and a mismatch ..... however, on the defensive side things haven't changed that much ... there were plenty of defenders with athleticism and length who could check the forward spots and be comfortable in space - they just may not have been able to stretch the court on the offensive side like bird (also keep in mind that bird was a plus defender)

Also, have you ever seen larry nance play?

It's dopey that you would discredit his abilities and try to talk up a guy like Josh Smith ..... they are very similar players

To say he doesn't have speed or agility is flat laughable

http://i.ebayimg.com/18/!CFNZMT!Bmk~$(KGrHqYOKi!E0Cgd!snFBNUYqmuOlw~~_35.J PG (broken link)


Also, it isn't all about size or athleticism ..... if you know how to use what you have you can do very well .... Grant Hill was one of the top defenders in the league this year playing on aging, busted wheels and gave these "young athletic" guys fits
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Silver Spring, MD/Washington DC
3,451 posts, read 8,149,978 times
Reputation: 2346
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
People also talk about the fact that Bird could make the 15 footer...again dont you think today's teams are smart enough to know not to give him that??? Simply put today, Bird would be forced to go to the basket every play...NEVER LEFT OPEN ON THE PERIMETER...I just dont see what his fall back options would be...and for all those still drooling over his nice jumper...well there's a reason why excellent jumpshooters like Cardinal, JJ Redick, Danny Morrison and others come off the bench...the late Ralph Wiley once said "In the NBA today, the question is not whether or not you can shoot the ball...no the question is can you get your shot off against NBA defenders"
Larry Bird's greatest skill was probably passing the ball (and related to that, seeing the floor), not shooting it, even though he was a great shooter.
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Silver Spring, MD/Washington DC
3,451 posts, read 8,149,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
I never questioned the athleticism of Nique.

-The real issue is, players now have much better coordination and grace and ball handling ability, being 6'8, 240 or 6'8 260, like Lebron. They have more football like qualities...i.e, being a wide reciever, or being like a defensive end.

-Bird played the bulk of his career, 80-88, in a totally different era. Moses Malone, Nance, Buck Williams were great defenders, but they had no where near the speed or agility of todays guys. At 2:07 on the bottom video, it shows him diving for the ball. Who would win the loose ball now? It would be no contest.

-Bird wasn't stupid and he had an incredible IQ. But I picture your typical forward guarding Bird in the 80's. Or picture J Smith, Lebron, etc. Somehow I think he would be thrown more off balance by these big guys now. Do you think he'd get in trouble holding the ball more? Or being double teamed?

How is he going to see Parrish or McHale or Ainge or DJ when he's got J smith in his face with some gigantic 7' foot or 7'3 wingspan? Don't you think that would cause problems. I don't think Bird would have free reign over the basketball court now, like he did in the 80's.

How many guys now could catch up with Bird off a screen?
This is absolutely ridiculous. You know what Larry Bird did when teams overplayed him and tried to take him away and underplayed his teammates? He let his teammates kick the other teams' butts (which they usually did). That's what great players who also understand the team concept do.
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,690 posts, read 2,469,494 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Bingo....end of thread( along with Finger Laker's post-WELL said).

Here's the other thing that's been mentioned in addition to 'IQ'.....skills and fundamentals. Bird had an abundance of both. Now the fact that I've seen players like Adam Morrison and J.J Redick raised here, in a manner to suggest that these players are in any way comparable to Bird.......... I.....I gotta exit this thread. Phew.


‪Bird -- Master of the Half Inch‬‏ - YouTube


That's Bird being defended by......Dennis Rodman.

I've seen this mentioned a few times and let me clear one thing up; I'm in no way shape or form saying that Morrison and Redick are the equal of Bird. Of course they arent. What I am saying is that your idea that skills and fundamentals are enough to get you through against the NBA players today is plain wrong.

I'm SOOOOO glad you mentioned Rodman totally forgot about him...since you are obviously a Bird fan...cast your mind back to the 1988 Eastern Conference finals...and watch Rodman go to work on Bird...denying him his shot in spots he likes...Bird struggled badly really for the first time in his career, because he was going up against an elite, athletic defender in Rodman. Well fast forward to today, and at least half the teams in the NBA have a guy that could approximate what the 1988 Rodman brought to the table as far as defense (note I said the 1988 Rodman, who was a genuine defensive force, not the Chicago Rodman who was something else entirely. All the fundamentals in the world can't save you against a guy who is quicker than you, taller than you, more athletic than you, and contrary to popular belief, capable of using his brain to figure out ways to cut off your best shots.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,877,543 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
What I am saying is that your idea that skills and fundamentals are enough to get you through against the NBA players today is plain wrong.

I'm SOOOOO glad you mentioned Rodman totally forgot about him...since you are obviously a Bird fan...cast your mind back to the 1988 Eastern Conference finals...and watch Rodman go to work on Bird...denying him his shot in spots he likes...Bird struggled badly really for the first time in his career, because he was going up against an elite, athletic defender in Rodman. Well fast forward to today, and at least half the teams in the NBA have a guy that could approximate what the 1988 Rodman brought to the table as far as defense (note I said the 1988 Rodman, who was a genuine defensive force, not the Chicago Rodman who was something else entirely. All the fundamentals in the world can't save you against a guy who is quicker than you, taller than you, more athletic than you, and contrary to popular belief, capable of using his brain to figure out ways to cut off your best shots.
First this is all opinion, so cut the 'you're wrong' crap out. Argue your point, but don't tell me I'm wrong. What you're saying isn't right, it's your opinion.

Second, 1988 Bird was a 32 year old with back problems facing a 27 year old in his athletic prime and defensive prime. You're not taking that into account, though I imagine you'll try to dismiss that. And finally, the fact that you say half of the teams today have someone who can approximate Rodman.....well I won't say you're wrong(wink), but I will say that's laughable. Dennis Rodman is one of the great defenders in league history. For you to make that statement, pretty much says it all.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:21 PM
JL
 
7,351 posts, read 11,876,045 times
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Rodman in his prime would be able to shut down Lebron. Rodman could take charges like a mother and had great lateral movement. One thing we know about Lebron besides him lacking in fundamentals is that he has trouble reading defenses....lets just say Lebron doesn't have the ball IQ like some of guys from the past and has to rely on his athleticism. Give it a few more years, he won't be able to rely on that anymore. Not being able to figure out how to stop Jason Terry says alot.

Bird wouldn't have a problem guarding Lebron. Bird was alot quicker than what people say. I was at the 86' Finals game 3 watching Bird live for the first time and he is not as slow as people keep saying. The reason i say he could guard Lebron is that LBJ is lacking in both a consistent perimeter shot and NO post up game. Bird could keep a good distance from Lebron , so it would be hard for Lebron to blow by him..I also think Lebron's post up defense hasn't been tested yet. Bird would post up on him though Lebron is a very good perimeter defender so i don't think Bird could beat him off the dribble. Then again, Bird would never let his opponent have that kind of advantage. He ain't dumb. Lebron would have to fight through screens and curls to get Bird anyway.

Last edited by JL; 07-18-2011 at 08:40 PM..
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,877,543 times
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And another thing, can you explain how someone like Steve Nash can still be an elite point guard, at 37? He holds no physical advantages over most starting point guards. So tell me, what makes Nash effective if not skills and fundamentals? Truthfully, that you're downplaying the significance of skills and fundamentals, and simply knowing how to play the game, is entertaining.

Did you happen to catch Lebron James in the finals? He has every physical advantage in the world, but his FLAWED fundamentals were exposed. When his jumper is off and he can't get to the rim, what else does he do? He doesn't play off the ball well..so he stands around and takes up space, maybe grabs a few rebounds and hands out a few assists, but effectively becomes a bystander.

What you fail to take into account is you're only arguing about Bird's ability to score against today's defenders. This shows a failure to understand that Bird was so much more than a shooter. His passing alone makes everyone on the court a threat, and he was excellent at picking his spots and moving without the ball. Notice how a guy like Ray Allen is still successful, strictly by having an ability to move without the ball and have a knockdown jumpshot. He's not using supreme athletic ability to get himself open, he just knows how to play without the ball. Bird knows how to do that in his sleep, and he only needs a split second of daylight, at 6'9, to get off that high arching Jumpshot, but I imagine that's not important to you, based off some of your other comments.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:34 PM
 
51,859 posts, read 41,758,040 times
Reputation: 32364
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
I've seen this mentioned a few times and let me clear one thing up; I'm in no way shape or form saying that Morrison and Redick are the equal of Bird. Of course they arent. What I am saying is that your idea that skills and fundamentals are enough to get you through against the NBA players today is plain wrong.

I'm SOOOOO glad you mentioned Rodman totally forgot about him...since you are obviously a Bird fan...cast your mind back to the 1988 Eastern Conference finals...and watch Rodman go to work on Bird...denying him his shot in spots he likes...Bird struggled badly really for the first time in his career, because he was going up against an elite, athletic defender in Rodman. Well fast forward to today, and at least half the teams in the NBA have a guy that could approximate what the 1988 Rodman brought to the table as far as defense (note I said the 1988 Rodman, who was a genuine defensive force, not the Chicago Rodman who was something else entirely. All the fundamentals in the world can't save you against a guy who is quicker than you, taller than you, more athletic than you, and contrary to popular belief, capable of using his brain to figure out ways to cut off your best shots.
You ignore all the points we make and then dredge up injured post-prime bird vs. one of the greatest defenders in nba history. THat is really honest.

Just keep shooting yourself in the foot. You are your own arguments worst enemy.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,361,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post

To the Bird supporters...I just dont see it. I'm sorry. The one reason y'all keep giving me is Bird's "high basketball IQ" which implies that today's NBA guys are just big dumb brutes who wouldnt have a clue how to defend Bird.
You didn't read the thread then. I usually advocate trying that before posting
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,690 posts, read 2,469,494 times
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Let's see who Bird had to play against in the early 80s:
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
Dominique Wilkins
Mark Aguirre
Kiki Vandeweghe
John Drew
Kelly Tripucka
Tom Chambers
Walter Davis
Scott Wedman
Bernard King
Albert King
Jay Vincent
Purvis Short
Jamaal Wilkes
Thurl Bailey
Marques Johnson
Mike Mitchell
Orlando Woolrdige
Dale Ellis
Eddie Johnson
Julius Erving
Dennis Rodman
Michael Cooper
Paul Pressey


I'm sure I'm missing a couple more...but that is the bulk of them. Many of them are offensive geniuses, but how many were defensive stoppers? Is it possible to agree that these types of players do not measure up to the type of defensively oriented small forwards we have today? Watch Tayshaun Prince on Kobe Bryant in the 2004 Finals, one of the greatest offensive players ever...you really dont think that Prince could have had ANY effect on Bird??? really??? Bird was that much better than Kobe? I think y'all know deep down that what I'm saying has merit.
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