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Old 07-19-2011, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,690 posts, read 2,473,113 times
Reputation: 2712

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
You also had:

Bobby Jones, Dan Roundfield, Michael Cooper, Buck Williams, Larry Nance, Bill Laimbeer, Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, Michael Jordan, etc

Dominque wasn't a good defender - he was super athletic, but not a good defender

X was pretty much the Artest of an earlier generation

Also today you have these guys starting at SF - Alonzo Gee, Danilo Gallinari, Dorell Wright, Chase Budinger, Danny Granger, Jamario Moon, Tony Allen, Carlos Delfino, Travis Outlaw, Carmelo Anthony, Hedo Turkoglu, Francisco Garcia, Richard Jefferson, James Johnson, CJ Miles & Maurice Evans .... even a guy like Jared Dudley who is a solid defender would give up a couple inches to Bird and struggle against him

It's not like todays game is wall to wall stoppers on every team - there is easily 17 teams in the league that would have no answer for Bird

Forgot about Bobby Jones...mentioned Cooper...Laimbeer was not a small forward, neither was MJ. Barkely, while he was small forward height, played more of a power game. Because some posters pointed out that Bird was injured and a lot older in the late 80s/early 90s, I've focused mainly on the players from the early 80s when he wasnt injured, thus I've had to exclude guys like Rodman, X-Man, and Pippen...they all came around in the mid to late 80s

Well yes not every small forward in the game today is a stopper, no doubt. Bird would definitely get his against some of those guys. But I just feel that there are enough guys who do match up with him that he wouldnt score as well as he did in the 80s.
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,690 posts, read 2,473,113 times
Reputation: 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by expect View Post
YES he would, larry bird is top 5 DOA, he accomplished what he did not because he had freak athletic ability but because he had a high basketball IQ, great fundamentals and was clutch among other things.
that list above (tayshaun prince, josh smith, wallace) is mostly athletic players, most if not all lack good fundamentals and clutchness. Bird was never the most athletic player on the court in the 80s and it didnt matter.
dirk nowitzki is the same way.. he's tall and lanky and awkward, arguably the least athletic player on his team and look what he accomplished and he is not 1/100th the clutch player Bird was.
josh smith is 100x more athletic than bird and most players in the league but what good does it do him? he's lazy and plays no defense.

larry bird >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've heard this a bunch of times on this thread. Larry Bird should dominate because of his great fundamentals and high IQ...while most players today supposedly lack these traits...ok...so how do you explain what Tayshaun Prince did to Kobe in 2004??? we can all agree that whether you like Kobe or not, that guy has a great basketball IQ, very good fundamentals...is not lazy or coasting on his athletic gifts...and is one of the all time greats (Larry Bird himself has said this) yet, all that didnt save him against an athletic guy with a 7 foot wingspan and the speed to stay in front of him...And Kobe is much more athletic than Bird...

So if Tayshaun could defend Kobe, how is it impossible that he could also defend Bird??? unless you're going to say that Kobe is just so far beneath Bird as a player. (and this is 2004 Kobe, still young and at his peak mind you)

I dont dispute Bird's high IQ...but I think you (and a lot of other posters on here) don't give enough credit to players today. Not everyone is an AND1 skip to my lou type player. There are a lot of very good players who do try to think about their opponent and not the highlight reel on sportscenter.
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:56 AM
 
9,029 posts, read 16,436,151 times
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Bird was good through the mid-80s and guys would roll people defenders towards him

You can't just look at a position, but look at the guys who would get the assignment

Heck, Kobe earned his defensive reputation pressing PGs

With the amount of movement in basketball, switches, etc you aren't locked against individual for all that long

Look at the rosters of todays players - just like in the 80s there are some teams that were well equiped and some that weren't

He pretty much was ahead of his time in being the guy who plays the wing that is tall, can shoot and create mismatches ... most big guys can't stick close, most short guys will get posted or shot over ....... this is the prototype for the position today

Things have opened up a bit and the game has changed - you don't have as much post and the big man game is down .... you have more iso grinding gameclock with fewer possessions ... but it still remains that the number of guys who would match up are still relatively few to the overall talent pool

He had very quick hands, very good feet, very good movement ... there was nothing wasted on the court with him.

It's unfortunate his career was shortened because of how he played - look at a guy like Steve Nash - his back is wrecked, he'll actually lie down and get treatment when he subs out sometimes, is 37 and has played through a couple eras of PGs and has produced despite whatever limitation you want to label him with

He's a guy who gets it
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:14 AM
 
9,029 posts, read 16,436,151 times
Reputation: 6814
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
I've heard this a bunch of times on this thread. Larry Bird should dominate because of his great fundamentals and high IQ...while most players today supposedly lack these traits...ok...so how do you explain what Tayshaun Prince did to Kobe in 2004??? we can all agree that whether you like Kobe or not, that guy has a great basketball IQ, very good fundamentals...is not lazy or coasting on his athletic gifts...and is one of the all time greats (Larry Bird himself has said this) yet, all that didnt save him against an athletic guy with a 7 foot wingspan and the speed to stay in front of him...And Kobe is much more athletic than Bird...

So if Tayshaun could defend Kobe, how is it impossible that he could also defend Bird??? unless you're going to say that Kobe is just so far beneath Bird as a player. (and this is 2004 Kobe, still young and at his peak mind you)

I dont dispute Bird's high IQ...but I think you (and a lot of other posters on here) don't give enough credit to players today. Not everyone is an AND1 skip to my lou type player. There are a lot of very good players who do try to think about their opponent and not the highlight reel on sportscenter.
Prince could - he just wouldn't play him evernight and he wouldn't win every single matchup

Also, in that series it was way more than just Prince - here are the Lakers stats ... only Shaq had a good series ... everyone else was very poor

LAKERS: 2004 NBA Finals Statistics

They gave prince a lot of help and structured their defense very well .... if you read Phil Jacksons book on that season he actually went off on Kobe a bit for his inability to adjust and how he kept doing the same stuff that wasn't working

The corpse of Karl Malone, Gary Payton and the ever dangerous Devean George weren't enough to alleviate the pressure from him - so he forced, pressed and took horrible shots as well

BTW - here are the game logs between Prince & Bryant ... as you can see Kobe has also had some very good games against him

Kobe Bryant vs. Tayshaun Prince | Basketball-Reference.com

In the 15 regular season matchups Kobe has went for 26ppg, 4 boards, 4.7 assists, 3.3 TOs, shooting 44% from the field and 36% from 3

His career regular season averages are 25 ppg, 5 rebounds, 4.7 assist, 2.9 TOs, shooting 45% from the field and 34% from 3

Really not that much deviation

Although Teyshaun definitely should get a lot of credit for having a great finals that year
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:20 AM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,199,926 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
I've heard this a bunch of times on this thread. Larry Bird should dominate because of his great fundamentals and high IQ...while most players today supposedly lack these traits...ok...so how do you explain what Tayshaun Prince did to Kobe in 2004??? we can all agree that whether you like Kobe or not, that guy has a great basketball IQ, very good fundamentals...is not lazy or coasting on his athletic gifts...and is one of the all time greats (Larry Bird himself has said this) yet, all that didnt save him against an athletic guy with a 7 foot wingspan and the speed to stay in front of him...And Kobe is much more athletic than Bird...

So if Tayshaun could defend Kobe, how is it impossible that he could also defend Bird??? unless you're going to say that Kobe is just so far beneath Bird as a player. (and this is 2004 Kobe, still young and at his peak mind you)

I dont dispute Bird's high IQ...but I think you (and a lot of other posters on here) don't give enough credit to players today. Not everyone is an AND1 skip to my lou type player. There are a lot of very good players who do try to think about their opponent and not the highlight reel on sportscenter.

this is a bit misleading. prince was a singular part of the best defense in the league. the pistons didnt just put prince on an island to guard kobe one on one, they rotated players, doubles and such on him all series long. in addition to that, kobe was not the player he is today, he was absolutely one of the most reckless, careless and selfish players in the league at that time. his IQ wasnt exactly where it is now. he didnt work on his game nearly as much then as he has since then.
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,690 posts, read 2,473,113 times
Reputation: 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
this is a bit misleading. prince was a singular part of the best defense in the league. the pistons didnt just put prince on an island to guard kobe one on one, they rotated players, doubles and such on him all series long. in addition to that, kobe was not the player he is today, he was absolutely one of the most reckless, careless and selfish players in the league at that time. his IQ wasnt exactly where it is now. he didnt work on his game nearly as much then as he has since then.

Kobe had just won three straight rings before this so he couldnt be the most reckless and careless in the league...he had to be doing SOMETHING RIGHT...Kobe's "selfishness" issues were more to do with his problems with Shaq...but that's for another thread on another day.

OK so let's use what James Posey did to Kobe in 2008. Does that work better for you? or maybe Paul Pierce guarding Lebron during his last year in Cleveland. if Posey and Pierce could guard Lebron and Kobe, you dont think they would have a shot at Bird???
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:40 AM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,199,926 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
Kobe had just won three straight rings before this so he couldnt be the most reckless and careless in the league...he had to be doing SOMETHING RIGHT...Kobe's "selfishness" issues were more to do with his problems with Shaq...but that's for another thread on another day.

OK so let's use what James Posey did to Kobe in 2008. Does that work better for you? or maybe Paul Pierce guarding Lebron during his last year in Cleveland. if Posey and Pierce could guard Lebron and Kobe, you dont think they would have a shot at Bird???
kobe had shaq to lead him to those rings. kobe has never won or done much of anything without the help of a big man. once again james posey was on a team with the best team defense in the league. kobe still got his on top of that. he shot right baout his average for the season as well.
you imply that a single player is stopping a single player and that is just not the case.

pierce on lebron? 1st lebrons IQ isnt real high, and 2nd once again celtics, top defensive team in the league PLUS lebron had ZERO help, who did the celtics have to worry about?

man this argument is almost as bad as the howard argument.
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:48 AM
 
9,029 posts, read 16,436,151 times
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Yeah - it is pretty nutty

But he stuggled in a series against the top defense in the league

Which means that a guy like Bird would face the best defense in the league every single game of the season and obviously wouldn't be able to compete

Yet still no rebuttal for there being at least 17 teams that would have zero matchup for bird on any given night or the fact that even when the matchups are favorable you don't always get the upper hand (such as the history between kobe & prince)
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Old 07-19-2011, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,690 posts, read 2,473,113 times
Reputation: 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
kobe had shaq to lead him to those rings. kobe has never won or done much of anything without the help of a big man. once again james posey was on a team with the best team defense in the league. kobe still got his on top of that. he shot right baout his average for the season as well.
you imply that a single player is stopping a single player and that is just not the case.

pierce on lebron? 1st lebrons IQ isnt real high, and 2nd once again celtics, top defensive team in the league PLUS lebron had ZERO help, who did the celtics have to worry about?

man this argument is almost as bad as the howard argument.
OK I should have qualified that...Posey was the primary defender against Kobe...no he didnt guard Kobe every single time down...but put it this way. If he sucked defensively then it wouldnt matter how great the rest of the team defense was. Ditto for Tayshaun Prince...unless you're going to say that those two are not good defenders?
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Old 07-19-2011, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,690 posts, read 2,473,113 times
Reputation: 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Yeah - it is pretty nutty

But he stuggled in a series against the top defense in the league

Which means that a guy like Bird would face the best defense in the league every single game of the season and obviously wouldn't be able to compete

Yet still no rebuttal for there being at least 17 teams that would have zero matchup for bird on any given night or the fact that even when the matchups are favorable you don't always get the upper hand (such as the history between kobe & prince)

Maybe it wasnt you, but I responded to someone who listed other small forwards in the game today who suck defensively, and I agreed that yes, against certain teams Bird would go off and get numbers. I was just saying that there are a whole lot more defensive forwards who match up with Bird in speed, size and length who can severely disrupt his game, especially when compared to the early 80s.
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