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Old 08-25-2011, 05:22 PM
JL
 
7,351 posts, read 11,882,165 times
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It takes some growing pains to get over the hump. It took Jordan and Pippen several years before they got past the Pistons. T-Mac and Yao really had one year playing together where they choked to the Mavs after leading the series 2-0. After that, either T-Mac or Yao were hurt and they never played much together at the same time.

He did lead them to a 2-0 lead in the playoffs while with the Magic, but the Pistons(?) came back to beat them. T-Mac was still young, but his on and off injuries was puzzling.

He was a very good passer and i loved his decision making on the court at the time. The injuries i think made the game not fun for him. It eventually caused him to lose desire for the game i think. After his micro surgery on his knee, he seemed to be invigorated, but he hasn't been the same player.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:29 PM
 
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This is kinda funny because a lot of people felt that he was the best player on a very bad pistons team last year. Most people felt he could have averaged over 20 a game but the coach never knew how to use him and changed lineups every game in search of chemistry.
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Old 08-27-2011, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
3,441 posts, read 5,002,913 times
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A great player but I disagree with some of you who say he would have been better than Kobe.
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Old 08-27-2011, 08:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Black Jack22 View Post
A great player but I disagree with some of you who say he would have been better than Kobe.

There was nothing Kobe did that he couldn't. Tracy could score just as much, was a better ball handler, could defend multiple positions, and was more consistent and efficient.
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
3,441 posts, read 5,002,913 times
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Originally Posted by WakaFlocka View Post
There was nothing Kobe did that he couldn't. Tracy could score just as much, was a better ball handler, could defend multiple positions, and was more consistent and efficient.
Kobe has been on the 1st team defense multiple times, more consistent? That's debatable. A better ball handler is debatable.

And couldn't even get out of the first round of the playoffs. Could've, should've, would've but didn't.

Kobe has 5 rings, Tracy has 0.
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:06 AM
 
1,833 posts, read 2,159,832 times
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Kobe has been on the 1st team defense multiple times, more consistent? That's debatable. A better ball handler is debatable.

All-NBA/Defensive teams, All-Star appaearances, and MVPs are all popularity contests and based on reputation.


Quote:
And couldn't even get out of the first round of the playoffs. Could've, should've, would've but didn't.

That's not Tracy's fault. It's not his fault he was on sh*tty teams. If the series against Detroit was one year earlier, they would have advanced with a 3-1 series win and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Dominique Wilkins never got past round 2, yet he's in the HOF.


Quote:
Kobe has 5 rings, Tracy has 0.

Karl Malone, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, and Charles Barkley all have 0 rings. Does that automatically rank them below Kobe? And 3 of Kobe's 5 rings were with Shaq. Kobe only won 2 as the go to guy.
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Old 08-28-2011, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
3,441 posts, read 5,002,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WakaFlocka View Post
All-NBA/Defensive teams, All-Star appaearances, and MVPs are all popularity contests and based on reputation.





That's not Tracy's fault. It's not his fault he was on sh*tty teams. If the series against Detroit was one year earlier, they would have advanced with a 3-1 series win and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Dominique Wilkins never got past round 2, yet he's in the HOF.





Karl Malone, John Stockton, Patrick Ewing, and Charles Barkley all have 0 rings. Does that automatically rank them below Kobe? And 3 of Kobe's 5 rings were with Shaq. Kobe only won 2 as the go to guy.
Tracy isn't going to leave the legacy that Malone, Stock, Ewing or Barkley. So their lack of rings doesn't relate to Tracy's lack of rings.

Tracy didn't have the production as many hall of famers. We can only guess how good Tracy would have been if it weren't for his injuries but that's history.

I would not rule out that Tracy COULD have been greater than Kobe if it weren't for his injuries, unfortunately we'll never know. Tracy was one of my favorite players when he was healthy.

Tracy had great moments but moments don't translate as leaving a legacy.

Regardless of what you or I think at the end of both careers, Kobe will always be remembered as being greater than Tracy.
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:52 PM
 
51,922 posts, read 41,791,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WakaFlocka View Post
All-NBA/Defensive teams, All-Star appaearances, and MVPs are all popularity contests and based on reputation.
Wait, so we can ignore McGrady's multiple appearances on the All-nba team because he didn't deserve them?

All-star games are the only popularity contests.

MVP often goes to the best player on the team with the best regular season record.

All-nba and all-defensive teams are pretty accurate.

We will never know how good McGrady could have become since he peaked at 23and then suffered from injuries and most players keep developing afterwards. (See Kobe's awards and at what age he got them.)

It's not a dig on McGrady that he got hurt....but arguments that awards are undeserved because you don't like how they got handed out cuts both ways now doesn't it. Especially since McGrady was on the receiving end of a few undeserved all-star game appearances thanks to the peoples republic of China.
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Old 08-28-2011, 04:22 PM
 
1,833 posts, read 2,159,832 times
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Quote:
MVP often goes to the best player on the team with the best regular season record.

Which is a form of reputation. Or the player with the most 1 place votes gets screwed because he's disliked by the media(see Charles Barkley in 1990)


Quote:
All-nba and all-defensive teams are pretty accurate.

No they're not. It's based on reputation. Allen Iverson should have been on the 2nd team in his first two years in Denver, but didn't get anything. Kobe being on the All-Defensive team now is a joke. He shouldn't have made it after 2007. LeBron should not have been an All-Defensive nominee this year as his reputation from Cleveland was taken into consideration.
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Old 08-29-2011, 06:23 AM
 
51,922 posts, read 41,791,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WakaFlocka View Post
Which is a form of reputation. Or the player with the most 1 place votes gets screwed because he's disliked by the media(see Charles Barkley in 1990)





No they're not. It's based on reputation. Allen Iverson should have been on the 2nd team in his first two years in Denver, but didn't get anything. Kobe being on the All-Defensive team now is a joke. He shouldn't have made it after 2007. LeBron should not have been an All-Defensive nominee this year as his reputation from Cleveland was taken into consideration.
I'm not going to dispute a selection here or there as invalidating the general consensus. The idea though is that if someone has made a bunch of all-nba teams they generally deserved them.

The point being that if you knock Kobe back to 5 all-defense teams instead of 7 or 8 etc. then generally speaking he was still a very good defender. You can't point to someone like Pippen (with 10 or so) and someone like McGrady (with 0) and just throw it out the window as a "biased vote".

Remember, McGrady made a crap ton of all-nba teams and IMO never even reached his peak potential due to injury. How would you feel if some McGrady hater comes in and says those are all meaningless and he was no better than some guy that made 1 team or none and that it's just based or reputation or popularity? That argument swings both ways after all.
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