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Old 08-29-2011, 06:37 AM
 
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The main difference between Kobe and Tmac is health and work ethic. Physically, Tmac was more gifted and probably even the more naturally talented player. Kobe obviously has talent to spare, but he 'worked' himself into greatness; Mcgrady I believe relied more on natural ability and simply didn't have the ethic and killer drive that Kobe did. Give Tmac Kobe's ethic and better health and you'd be talking about Tmac 20 years from now. He had that much potential, but unfortunately, that's all it turned out to be. Potential. Out of all the coulda-beens i.e Mcgrady, Penny, Grant Hill, I think Tmac had a chance to be the best of them( in fact his game in some ways was a blend of the other 2, with more prolific scoring ability).
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:47 PM
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Check this thread out. Pretty interesting comments.

RealGM • View topic - From 2000-2004, was Tracy McGrady better than Kobe Bryant?
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
The main difference between Kobe and Tmac is health and work ethic. Physically, Tmac was more gifted and probably even the more naturally talented player. Kobe obviously has talent to spare, but he 'worked' himself into greatness; Mcgrady I believe relied more on natural ability and simply didn't have the ethic and killer drive that Kobe did. Give Tmac Kobe's ethic and better health and you'd be talking about Tmac 20 years from now. He had that much potential, but unfortunately, that's all it turned out to be. Potential. Out of all the coulda-beens i.e Mcgrady, Penny, Grant Hill, I think Tmac had a chance to be the best of them( in fact his game in some ways was a blend of the other 2, with more prolific scoring ability).

Agree with this. I always thought that TMac was really just a slightly bigger, more athletic version of Kobe, he could do EVERYTHING Kobe could do. No question.

On the flip side though, I feel we have to discount his early Orlando years a little...since he was the only offensive threat on those teams, he pretty much had the green light to shoot whenever he wanted (I havent checked, but I thought his Orlando FG percentage was in the mid forties? not terrible, but not great either)

You could also question whether he really elevated his teammates and made them better which is the litmus test for all the truly elite players. for all those who talk about the crappy teams he had in Orlando (and they were crap), how much different was his situation to that of Lebron in Cleveland? yet LBJ was able to get his teams past the first round, and LBJ could pull out the extra effort when needed (ask anyone from Detroit).

All in all though, a great, great talent, who was tragically cut down by injuries and maybe mentally fragile too. I remember a few years ago, he talked about 'retiring'...at the age of 28!! Barkely and Kenny roasted his butt on TNT for that one.
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Old 09-13-2011, 05:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post

On the flip side though, I feel we have to discount his early Orlando years a little...since he was the only offensive threat on those teams, he pretty much had the green light to shoot whenever he wanted (I havent checked, but I thought his Orlando FG percentage was in the mid forties? not terrible, but not great either)

You could also question whether he really elevated his teammates and made them better which is the litmus test for all the truly elite players. for all those who talk about the crappy teams he had in Orlando (and they were crap), how much different was his situation to that of Lebron in Cleveland? yet LBJ was able to get his teams past the first round, and LBJ could pull out the extra effort when needed (ask anyone from Detroit).
His field goal percentage pretty much plummeted when his health issues took over. Before that he was basically 45-46 percent, respectable given the high number of 3pointers he took in addition to being the focus of the offense night in, night out.

I think one difference between Lebron's Cavs and Tmac's Magic, that Cavs team was effectively built around Lebron's gifts, which enabled him to maximize their talents and achieve great results. The early 2000's Magic roster was, from memory, a mis-mesh of players that didn't necessarily fit in with Tmac's talents, so they were pretty much a marginal team that only went as far as Mcgrady could carry them. I mean you had guys like Drew Gooden, Darrell Armstrong, Andrew Declerq, a young Mike Miller, Pat Garrity( remember Grant Hill was injured). Ironically Hill was initially supposed to be the alphadog, with Tmac his sidekick.
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Old 09-14-2011, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
His field goal percentage pretty much plummeted when his health issues took over. Before that he was basically 45-46 percent, respectable given the high number of 3pointers he took in addition to being the focus of the offense night in, night out.

I think one difference between Lebron's Cavs and Tmac's Magic, that Cavs team was effectively built around Lebron's gifts, which enabled him to maximize their talents and achieve great results. The early 2000's Magic roster was, from memory, a mis-mesh of players that didn't necessarily fit in with Tmac's talents, so they were pretty much a marginal team that only went as far as Mcgrady could carry them. I mean you had guys like Drew Gooden, Darrell Armstrong, Andrew Declerq, a young Mike Miller, Pat Garrity( remember Grant Hill was injured). Ironically Hill was initially supposed to be the alphadog, with Tmac his sidekick.

you think the Cavs were built around Lebron's gifts??? really??? ok that's a first. Anytime Anderson Verajao is one of your top 3 players, that's a problem. Again, I'm not questioning that the Orlando guys were horrible, because they were. but I just feel that a truly great player could get at least one playoff win...the one that sticks in my mind the most is the one against Milwaukee when Orlando was up 3-1, and blew it to let Milwaukee come from behind to take the series (can't remember the year exactly maybe around 2000?)...that right there defined TMac for me. A guy who was comfortable getting his numbers when there was no pressure, but couldnt make the leap when the heat is on.
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Old 09-14-2011, 07:51 AM
 
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you think the Cavs were built around Lebron's gifts??? really??? ok that's a first.
Yeah, they were. Consider the number of shooters on that squad who would benefit from Lebron's ability to pass off double-teams. The Cavs offense was effectively this: Give the ball to Lebron at the top of the key, and give him carte blanche to create for himself, when double-teamed kick it to the shooters when he draws the defense into the lane: Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Daniel Gibson, all prolific 40% 3pt shooters greatly benefited from this. When you have a guy like Lebron whose primary game is slashing, you want to surround him with shooters. And that's what they did. Then they brought in Jamison to provide complementary scoring and Shaq to give them size in a potential matchup with Orlando in the playoffs. It was a formula that worked to great success in the regular season( 66 wins in 2009, 61 wins in 2010), but they ran into a wall of bad match-ups in 2009( against Orlando), and just a superior all-around team in 2010( against Boston).

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the one that sticks in my mind the most is the one against Milwaukee when Orlando was up 3-1, and blew it to let Milwaukee come from behind to take the series (can't remember the year exactly maybe around 2000?)...
I think you mean Detroit??
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Old 09-14-2011, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
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Yeah, they were. Consider the number of shooters on that squad. The Cavs offense was effectively this: Give the ball to Lebron at the top of the key, and give him carte blanche to create for himself, when double-teamed kick it to the shooters when he draws the defense into the lane: Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Daniel Gibson, all prolific 40% 3pt shooters greatly benefited from this. When you have a guy like Lebron who's primary game is slashing, you want to surround him with shooters. And that's what they did. Then they brought in Jamison to provide complementary scoring and Shaq to give them size in a potential matchup in the playoffs. It was a formula that worked to great success in the regular season( 66 wins in 2009, 61 wins in 2010), but they ran into a wall of bad matchups in 2009( against Orlando), and just a superior all-around team in 2010( against Boston).


Well I think differently...and I think LBJ disagrees with you as well since he left as soon as he could...in fairness, there was a whole lot that didnt work for the Cavs, the first big blow was the whole Boozer debacle, because rebounding became a weakness for the Cavs after he left. Big Z was really washed up by the time LBJ got there, and Verajao really should have been coming off the bench, not starting. They lacked the second option who could at the very least give LBJ a breather (thus LBJ would play 40 something minutes regularly, remember when he had to play the ENTIRE GAME in a couple of playoff games?)

One big problem was the poor coaching he had, he started off as the point guard which was dumb, before finally wising up and moving him to small forward where he belonged all along. They never really worked on getting him to move without the ball, and of course the biggie, it seemed no one really tried to get him to develop a post game. Something I had been screaming about for 7 years...It's a testament to just how talented he is that he was able to achieve the team success that he did in spite of all these flaws...

I think you mean Detroit??

oops, yep you're right, it was Detroit, dont know why I thought it was Milwaukee...

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Old 09-14-2011, 08:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post


Well I think differently...

Aren't differing opinions wonderful?

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and I think LBJ disagrees with you as well since he left as soon as he could
Lebron endorsed all the personnel transactions that the Cavs made over the past few years. I think it's pretty well known that Lebron, Wade, and Bosh had been discussing teaming up since the 2008 Olympics. The Cavs failing to win the title after 2 stellar regular seasons only made the choice to leave easier. But Wade wasn't leaving Miami to go to Cleveland, and Bosh made it clear he wasn't interested in going there.

I think you're confusing what I'm saying. I'm not saying he had great pieces around him. I'm saying the kind of players that were brought in complemented Lebron's talents. It's the only way that team averaged 60+ wins for 2 years. And, we're talking about Cleveland. No offense intended, but it's not exactly a place that's going to draw in marquee free agents, nor did that team have alot of trade-able commodities to net that one 'second' star. That team was assembled around Lebron based on his strengths and went as far as he could take it. But, especially in the 2010 playoffs, we saw a stellar example of how a great singular talent cannot beat a great team. See Michael Jordan and the Bulls prior to 1991.
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One big problem was the poor coaching he had, he started off as the point guard which was dumb,

Not really. Lebron was basically considered an athletic Magic Johnson coming out of high school, in fact his passing was the most coveted part of his game. And despite the fact that he's listed as a small forward, I think it's pretty obvious that he was effectively the team's Point Guard during his tenure there, he was the primary ball handler and playmaker. Hence the term point-forward. It's like saying John Paxson or Ron Harper was the Bulls point guard because they lined up at the position, when it's obvious that Pippen was running the offense. Same situation here...

Last edited by Roman77; 09-14-2011 at 09:30 AM..
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Old 09-14-2011, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Aren't differing opinions wonderful?


Lebron endorsed all the personnel transactions that the Cavs made over the past few years. I think it's pretty well known that Lebron, Wade, and Bosh had been discussing teaming up since the 2008 Olympics. The Cavs failing to win the title after 2 stellar regular seasons only made the choice to leave easier. But Wade wasn't leaving Miami to go to Cleveland, and Bosh made it clear he wasn't interested in going there.

All very true.

I think you're confusing what I'm saying. I'm not saying he had great pieces around him. I'm saying the kind of players that were brought in complemented Lebron's talents. It's the only way that team averaged 60+ wins for 2 years. And, we're talking about Cleveland. No offense intended, but it's not exactly a place that's going to draw in marquee free agents, nor did that team have alot of trade-able commodities to net that one 'second' star. That team was assembled around Lebron based on his strengths and went as far as he could take it. But, especially in the 2010 playoffs, we saw a stellar example of how a great singular talent cannot beat a great team. See Michael Jordan and the Bulls prior to 1991.


Not really. Lebron was basically considered an athletic Magic Johnson coming out of high school, in fact his passing was the most coveted part of his game. And despite the fact that he's listed as a small forward, I think it's pretty obvious that he was effectively the team's Point Guard during his tenure there, he was the primary ball handler and playmaker. Hence the term point-forward. It's like saying John Paxson or Ron Harper was the Bulls point guard because they lined up at the position, when it's obvious that Pippen was running the offense. Same situation here...
Personally I've always thought this claim was slightly over rated about LBJ...his supposed "Magic" like passing ability. I don't think he was anywhere near that. He was more of a "create for others off his offense" type guy rather than a legit point guard. For a legit point guard (like Magic, Nash, Kidd, Stockton), the first and foremost responsiblity is to get the team into it's offense, and create plays for teammates. LBJ's first priority was to get his own offense going (out of necessity) and THEN to look for teammates if he got double teamed/offense didnt get going/he got scared to shoot like in the Finals/etc. And this, to me is a fundamental difference between a point guard and a passing forward.

Which is why I think Cleveland struggled with him at the point. It became everyone stand around and watch LBJ take off from the top of the key, and either make the play or kick it out to an open guy...not bad offense, but pretty predictable and easy for elite defensive teams to stop. What SHOULD have happened ideally would be for a REAL point guard run the offense, obviously look for Lebron, but at the same time create plays for others, screen and rolls, pick and pops, post play, etc...Lebron's off the ball skills could have been worked on, using him as part decoy, and also to get him into better scoring position (how many times would he hoist up 30 foot jumpers that you KNEW were not going in even before he shot????)
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Old 09-14-2011, 01:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
Personally I've always thought this claim was slightly over rated about LBJ...his supposed "Magic" like passing ability.

Well hey, I've seen enough of Magic Johnson to not buy into that kind of hype, I'm just relaying what the scouting reports were saying about him coming into the NBA.



He was more of a "create for others off his offense" type guy rather than a legit point guard.

I'd say that's a fair description, and this is precisely what I was trying to tell you earlier about how his teammates fed off his talents. Guys like Mo Williams and Daniel Gibson got open looks off double teams on Lebron.


For a legit point guard (like Magic, Nash, Kidd, Stockton), the first and foremost responsiblity is to get the team into it's offense, and create plays for teammates. LBJ's first priority was to get his own offense going (out of necessity) and THEN to look for teammates

Agreed, the primary difference between Lebron and those guys being that Lebron 'had' to be the main scorer( like you said out of necessity) AND playmaker on that Cavs roster. All the other guys are complimentary talents, not really guys that created their own offense. Magic, Nash, Kidd, Stockton played on teams where they weren't required to be the primary scorer, so their focus was on getting their teammates involved first and foremost.


It became everyone stand around and watch LBJ take off from the top of the key, and either make the play or kick it out to an open guy...not bad offense, but pretty predictable and easy for elite defensive teams to stop.

No doubt, and like I said earlier, when facing a team like the Celtics in the playoffs, that kind of offense is going to be exploited. In fact, that kind of offense plays right into the hands of what the Celtics would like to do defensively.



What SHOULD have happened ideally would be for a REAL point guard run the offense, obviously look for Lebron, but at the same time create plays for others, screen and rolls, pick and pops, post play, etc...Lebron's off the ball skills could have been worked on


Would only really work when Lebron is fully competent playing without the ball. We saw that this year with Wade in Miami. These are ball-dominant guys who've never had to play off-ball before this past season. Lebron's a great talent, but he still has plenty to improve on
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