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Old 08-19-2011, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Earth
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I don't know what prompted this, but meh with the lockout nothing else to talk about.

If you took the prime version of Tmac, let's define that as the 2003 season when he put up 32, 6, 5....and projected that level of play over a 10-12 year stretch, where would you rank him among perimeter players historically? When I ask this, I'm speaking strictly in terms of on-court ability, not in terms of team achievements( before someone brings up his first round woes.)

Here's a highlight video of prime Mcgrady against Detroit in the 2003 playoffs:


Tracy McGrady 43pts (2003 NBA Playoffs) - YouTube




So....how good was he?
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Old 08-19-2011, 05:19 PM
JL
 
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Greg,
He was awesome. I remember seeing him play live when he was with Orlando and visited the Rockets. He could score from anywhere on the court. Just unstoppable. I really enjoyed his first couple of years when he played for the Rockets. He was damn good! I got to see quite a few of the home games, but i missed being able to see this game live.......no one mentions this game like they do the Reggie Miller/Knicks scoring barrage years ago, but i think it ranks up there. Oh what could've been had he and Yao were healthy...oh well.


tracy mcgrady 13 points in 35 seconds(High Quality) - YouTube
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Old 08-21-2011, 12:23 AM
Jza
 
Location: New Jersey
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Tmac woulda been better than Kobe if he had the mental toughness. He was more athletically gifted but he proved over time to be injury prone and just not mentally tough enough to excel further than he did. Gotta have the total package. some guys have all the physical gifts but no mental edge and some have it the other way around. Take Larry Bird and the thread talking about would he be good today. He was mentally tough and crafty, I think he would be good today.

I was a big McGrady fan until he started to show panic in big moments and kinda choke too. He turned into one of those players that would shoot his team out of the game like Bryant was some seasons and Allen Iverson was for his whole career.

Maybe it runs in the family, most of the faults I used to describe Tmac apply to his cousin Vince Carter, 2 coulda beens.
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Old 08-21-2011, 02:35 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
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I think you almost have to include playoffs when talking about how good someone is. Look at Jordan. He's the definition of clutch, playoff basketball.....the player everyone else is compared against.

Some of these guys...TMac...Grant Hill?.....I think could have been top 25, top 30 of all time. The problem is....there's that..."hump"...you've got to get over. I.e. mentally. Being healthy. Playoff performer.

Tmac I think is close to true greatness. In his prime, I think he would have deserved a spot on the '92 dream team for example. It would have been interesting if he and kobe had gone back and forth over the scoring titles.
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Old 08-21-2011, 10:53 PM
 
Location: San Diego
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Out of a ten, I'd give him a 7.5.

Yea, barely above average. Lifelong Magic fan here and the dude was a regular season juggernaut. However, when it counted most...you couldn't count on him at all. Very good scorer, average at best defense, and very low leadership.

The Magic were banking on Hill being the leader which made sense but that amount of injuries they got during those 3-4 year range was unreal and completely changed that team's history forever. I never thought Hill would still be playing let alone be a million times better than T-Mac in 2011.
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Old 08-22-2011, 06:10 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dub D View Post
Out of a ten, I'd give him a 7.5.

Yea, barely above average. Lifelong Magic fan here and the dude was a regular season juggernaut. However, when it counted most...you couldn't count on him at all. Very good scorer, average at best defense, and very low leadership.
Maybe I'm a little senile but I recall Tmac being a strong playoff performer, at least looking at the numbers( which I admit, doesn't tell the whole story). To me his biggest weakness was just a general lack of work ethic. But if I recall, he was dragging the likes of Darrell Armstrong, Pat Garrity, Drew Gooden, Andrew Declerq to the playoffs with Orlando, so it's no surprise the team never got out of the first round. He didn't exactly have much to work with. Actually for the most part he's always played on underdog rosters, there's only one occasion where I can say his team was actually 'favored' to win a series, back in 2006-7 when the Rockets lost to Utah in Game 7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
I think you almost have to include playoffs when talking about how good someone is.
I specified in my original post that I was hoping to discuss his on-court ability and game, not intangibles like how his TEAM performed in the playoffs.
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:41 AM
 
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Good thread topic.

Tracy McGrady NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

He had 3 really good years and then his shooting percentage TANKED. He peaked (by far) at age 23.

I feel the playoff criticisms were overblown, his playoff numbers were huge.

One very interesting thing to note is just home many 3pt shots he started launching around age 23 and after. 3pt shots became 25% or so of his total field goal attempts by age 24 and on....which helped push his FG% down and made him more streaky....and also decreases your trips to the line.

He lost a step and became more of a perimeter shooter, that's that. Barring injury I think he would have continued somewhat on his pace but he entered the league at 18 so I don't think you can extrapolate him having 10 years from age 23-33 at that peak level.

He was not a great defender either. Basically, no injury and he makes the HOF kinda like Reggie Miller.

P.S. I'm not a big fan of extrapolating guys performance wayyyy out into the future as injuries are a BIG part of the game and everyone loses a step and plays less minutes and doesn't always adjust well. Remember the projects people were making about Kobe 12+ months ago? We need to bump that thread.
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Old 08-22-2011, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post

He lost a step and became more of a perimeter shooter, that's that. Barring injury I think he would have continued somewhat on his pace but he entered the league at 18 so I don't think you can extrapolate him having 10 years from age 23-33 at that peak level.
It's not far fetched that he could have maintained a similar level from 2003 for 10 years, barring any major injuries. Maybe a few up and down years, but 'generally' in the ballpark of that 2003 season. Kobe had a 10 year stretch from 2001-2011 before you saw 'really' noticeable drop-off, and he has serious mileage on his legs. Tmac really launched in 2001, if you look at his numbers, reached his peak in 2003, then fell off from the injuries. I think barring injuries, he could have at least maintained a 25,6,5 line, even today, with the kind of talent he had. Of course this is just a 'what-if'...but for my money the guy was one of the most naturally talented players I've seen.
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Tracy McGrady: Lost Season, 02-03 | Hardwood Paroxysm

Here's an interesting take on Mcgrady, particularly the 2003 season.
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Old 08-23-2011, 03:17 PM
 
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He was the ultimate point forward. He was an elite scorer, was a good outside shooter, athletic, good ball handling, good passer, could defend multiple positions with his length, and took sh*tty Magic teams to the playoffs in three consecutive seasons.

In his prime, he put up 32/7/6 and took a team with players in and out of Orlando all year to game 7 against Detroit. Had 2003 been just one year earlier, Orlando would have upset the #1 seeded Detroit 3-1 and advanced to play Philly in round 2.

McGrady's mental toughness wasn't the issue. That issue belonged to his cousin Vinny. Tracy was always a walking sheet of glass. He had back problems dating back to 2001. At just 22, he was starting to slowly fall apart.

Prime T-Mac was a more consistent version of Kobe Bryant. He also had a surprisingly high ball IQ. He didn't make many mistakes with the ball.
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