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Old 01-03-2012, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Hold tight guys, IF Tmac is healthy he may surprise you this year.....

 
Old 01-03-2012, 10:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
To me the sum of a healthy Tmac's game is greater than Rip's. The big question with Tmac is always health. Neither player is being counted on as a savior or primary focus of their team, but I like that Tmac can make plays for others. Rose remains the team's lone offensive creator.

I'm also considering production/cost in the equation. Tmac is getting the veteran's minimum...how much is Rip getting? Who's the greater value? It's still a very short sample of games, but Tmac's production isn't far off from Rip's, in less minutes.

As always, we'll see how the season progresses....for all we know in 30 games Tmac could either be on the injured list for the season, or a candidate for 6th man. All still very early.....
Hamilton is getting about 5mil a year for 2 years and an option for yr. 3.

Note that Hamilton has only averaged about 50 games the last 2 seasons so his health is a ? too.

Bulls could also use their amnesty on him if needed.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 10:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Hold tight guys, IF Tmac is healthy he may surprise you this year.....
To be honest, he had those 2 missing years with injury....but last year he played 1600+ minutes over 72 games with Detroit.

So, quite frankly now that I look at it.....I'd rather have McGrady than Rip once I look at the contracts etc.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Hamilton is getting about 5mil a year for 2 years and an option for yr. 3.

Note that Hamilton has only averaged about 50 games the last 2 seasons so his health is a ? too.

Bulls could also use their amnesty on him if needed.
How much is Mcgrady getting at the Veteran's minimum? Do you know off-hand...?
 
Old 01-03-2012, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Cook County
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T-Mac hasn't averaged over 8.2 ppg going on 5 years now. Last year, when he was "healthy" for the first time in forever, he managed to put up 8 ppg. Hamiltons last 5 seasons have all been over 18/per game with the exception of last year, the worst year of his career when he was at 14.1 ppg. Add in the fact Hamilton is a better defender at this stage, and it is a 100% slam dunk that the bulls are better off with Hamilton.

There is a reason a ton of teams wouldnt even give T-Mac a look for the league minimum.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
T-Mac hasn't averaged over 8.2 ppg going on 5 years now. Last year, when he was "healthy" for the first time in forever, he managed to put up 8 ppg.
Huh? Tmac averaged 15.6 points per game 3 seasons ago(08-09) when he was last playing starter minutes. Last year in Detroit was coming off two seasons where he basically played 30 games a year. RIGHT NOW, he's putting up 11, 4.5,1.5 on 54% shooting in 23 minutes a night. What his max is at this stage, in terms of how many minutes his body can handle and remain healthy is an unknown, but his production at a salary 1/3 of Rip's raises the question of who the better value is. Look at Rip's stats THIS year, is he producing much more than Tmac? Nope. You can line up Tmac at the three backcourt positions and he can ably fill in, depending on matchups etc. And, despite how long he's been around, he's actually only 32 and doesn't have the wear and tear of others his age. Unfortunately he does have a genetic condition which means he cannot withstand the rigors of 82 games at 35 minutes a night, but that's not his role at this stage. Give the guy 25 minutes as a backup against the other team's bench players, and it's going to be advantage Tmac/Hawks on many occasions. Rip being inserted into the Bulls lineup still doesn't address the need for the Bulls to have an offensive creator on the bench. A healthy Tmac is more than capable of filling that role.

The reasons for teams being iffy on him is because of health, not ability. If he's healthy, he's an absolute steal at a one-year veteran's minimum. If he injures himself again, he's getting paid peanuts so it matters little in the grand scheme.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Cook County
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Huh? Tmac averaged 15.6 points per game 3 seasons ago(08-09) when he was last playing starter minutes. Last year in Detroit was coming off two seasons where he basically played 30 games a year. RIGHT NOW, he's putting up 11, 4.5,1.5 on 54% shooting in 23 minutes a night. What his max is at this stage, in terms of how many minuted his body can handle and remain healthy is an unknown, but his production at a salary 1/3 of Rip's raises the question of who the better value is. Look at Rip's stats THIS year, is he producing much more than Tmac? Nope.

The reasons for teams being iffy on him is because of health, not ability. If he's healthy, he's an absolute steal at a one-year veteran's minimum. If he injures himself again, he's getting paid peanuts so it matters little in the grand scheme.
Yeah, you are right about the stats, I pulled them here:

Tracy McGrady NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

and gave a quick glance, not realizing they split up his different teams within a year in the per game chart.

However, the Bulls needed a player to add scoring, but also be a reliable defender and fit into their scheme. They were not interested in freerolling on McGrady and potentially having the same team as last year. I hope to god, a team trying to win a title, isn't consider which is better "value" as oppose to who gives them a better chance to win over the next several years. And it's not like they are breaking the bank for Rip. And we could probably relax on comparing the two per game stats right now, seeing how Rip has played 4 games for the bulls so far.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Cook County
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To expand on my "not caring about value" thing above. I think teams should care about value in a player as it relates to salary, but in the specific discussion we are having it is about the Bulls 4th option and neither player commanding that great of a salary. I think a team on the cusp of the title, just adding one more piece to an already mostly completed puzzle, would prioritize on who is the best fit, as oppose to who is the better gamble.
 
Old 01-03-2012, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,880,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post

However, the Bulls needed a player to add scoring, but also be a reliable defender and fit into their scheme. They were not interested in freerolling on McGrady and potentially having the same team as last year. I hope to god, a team trying to win a title, isn't consider which is better "value" as oppose to who gives them a better chance to win over the next several years. And it's not like they are breaking the bank for Rip. And we could probably relax on comparing the two per game stats right now, seeing how Rip has played 4 games for the bulls so far.
How reliable is 34 year old Rip, at this stage, as a defender? Do you see him defending any of the league's younger, athletic 2-guards? I don't, and surely the Bulls didn't add him to be a defensive juggernaut at the 2. He was added for championship mettle, and a steady jumpshot.

Do teams look at value? Well yes, in addition to being a sport, Basketball is a business. Look at Rip's production this year compared to Tmac's, at their respective salaries, and tell me who's the better bang for the buck. You can more or less sign a second bench player with the difference between their salaries. Hell, Shane Battier signed with the Heat for 3 million a season, with the 5 million you paid for Rip you could have had Tmac at 1.5 million( Veteran) and Battier at 3 million( mid level). Better value?

Yes, I did say it was early in the season, so comparing stats is probably a little too soon and we don't know how the season will end. I just don't think Rip, at this stage, makes the Bulls a particularly more dangerous team than with a healthy Tmac. In fact, I'd argue that Tmac's scoring punch and playmaking off the bench is more needed than inserting Rip into the starting lineup. Which still places you in the same situation as last year, in terms of your bench's lack of perimeter scoring.

Last edited by Roman77; 01-03-2012 at 12:16 PM..
 
Old 01-03-2012, 12:43 PM
 
51,946 posts, read 41,806,773 times
Reputation: 32410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
How reliable is 34 year old Rip, at this stage, as a defender? Do you see him defending any of the league's younger, athletic 2-guards? I don't, and surely the Bulls didn't add him to be a defensive juggernaut at the 2. He was added for championship mettle, and a steady jumpshot.

Do teams look at value? Well yes, in addition to being a sport, Basketball is a business. Look at Rip's production this year compared to Tmac's, at their respective salaries, and tell me who's the better bang for the buck. You can more or less sign a second bench player with the difference between their salaries. Hell, Shane Battier signed with the Heat for 3 million a season, with the 5 million you paid for Rip you could have had Tmac at 1.5 million( Veteran) and Battier at 3 million( mid level). Better value?

Yes, I did say it was early in the season, so comparing stats is probably a little too soon and we don't know how the season will end. I just don't think Rip, at this stage, makes the Bulls a particularly more dangerous team than with a healthy Tmac. In fact, I'd argue that Tmac's scoring punch and playmaking off the bench is more needed than inserting Rip into the starting lineup. Which still places you in the same situation as last year, in terms of your bench's lack of perimeter scoring.
The problem with that scenario is Battier is IMO of no use to the Bulls given their depth. It's not an easy decision, maybe TMAC just wanted to be in Atlanta etc?

In any event I'm happy with Rip.
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