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Old 12-22-2011, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,363,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Blasphemy!!!
I really believe Durant is better than Wade. The proven winner thing doesn't go far with me for Wade. He won one title, with Shaq and rigged reffing (or at least, awful reffing). By no means do I say he isn't a great player, but I would for sure put Durant above him
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:01 PM
 
51,917 posts, read 41,791,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatkins View Post
Blake Griffin #10 - Are you serious? Based on one year!!!!!
Pau Gasol #11 - He is not better than Carmelo Anthony!
Kevin Love #16 - This guy is a baller, but he plays no defense, he should be lower.
Kevin Garnett #22 - He is not CURRENTLY better than LaMarcus Aldridge. That's ridiculous
Andrew Bynum #30 - Too high, injury proned
I agree with ALL of that.

Griffin wasn't on any of the all-nba teams and spent his season playing run-and-gun stat padding games against teams that were destroying the Clippers.
Let's see what he does when the Clippers start winning 1/2 their games and the games aren't being played like the all-star game.

Hey, he's a really good rookie...but to put him top 10 in the league when he's never made an all-nba team, never played in a playoff game?

Bynum is a hugely over-rated joke. Teams are focusing on Kobe and Gasol and he scoops up a lot of easy dunks and o-boards because his guy has to cheat off of him and both Kobe and Gasol can pass.
Andrew Bynum 2010-11 Game Log | Basketball-Reference.com
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,879,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
I really believe Durant is better than Wade. The proven winner thing doesn't go far with me for Wade. He won one title, with Shaq and rigged reffing (or at least, awful reffing). By no means do I say he isn't a great player, but I would for sure put Durant above him
Durant isn't the all-around force Wade is. Take the championships out of the equation, and judge them at each aspect of the game. Durant is arguably the better scorer though we all know Wade is no scrub, Wade's definitely the better defender and the better playmaker. The sum of Wade's game is greater than Durant's, and the one area where you could say Durant has an edge is scoring, and it's not a glaring gap.

Now having said that, Durant is 23 and Wade 30, so if I was drafting a team, Durant easily is the better pick. But I can't say he's better at this point. Also, we haven't even started the season yet, so I'd rather hold off this debate until at least the mid-point of the season. Wade is who he is at this point, Durant still has a lot of upside and we don't know what he will unveil this year in terms of additions to his game.
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:16 PM
 
51,917 posts, read 41,791,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Can't agree with that one, Math. Particularly not at this stage of Kobe's career. Wade's the more efficient scorer, the more impactful defender. Kobe is Kobe, but the last time he had any kind of argument over Wade was around 2009. The thing is, Kobe at his healthy best is still as dangerous as they come, but he's past the point where he can do it consistently over 82 games.

In all seriousness, all of the top 6-7 guys have points where they look like the best in the league. There's more parity at the top in this era, whereas in the Jordan era for example, it was more or less Jordan and then everyone else.
I think that picking being Durant, Kobe, Wade and Dirk right now is pretty fluid.

I still give Kobe the nod over wade defensively.
Wade has only ever made a few 2nd teams and last year not even that.
NBA & ABA All-Defensive Teams | Basketball-Reference.com

Kobe was still #1 all nba last year.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I just don't see how you can make a case that Wade is clearly better than 4-7 especially since he definitely didn't outplay Dirk in the finals last year and he had Lebron guarding him often instead of guys like terry\kidd\barea.
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:24 PM
 
Location: DMV
10,136 posts, read 11,645,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I think that picking being Durant, Kobe, Wade and Dirk right now is pretty fluid.

I still give Kobe the nod over wade defensively.
Wade has only ever made a few 2nd teams and last year not even that.
NBA & ABA All-Defensive Teams | Basketball-Reference.com

Kobe was still #1 all nba last year.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I just don't see how you can make a case that Wade is clearly better than 4-7 especially since he definitely didn't outplay Dirk in the finals last year and he had Lebron guarding him often instead of guys like terry\kidd\barea.
I agree. Wade was extremely inconsistent in the playoffs which I think should hurt his and Lebron's case. Head to head, Dirk's team outplayed their team and won a championship. I'm not even talking about Lebron guarding Dirk or vice versa, but I am saying if these two teams played each other like they did, who can you honestly said made the most difference for their team. The answer to me is obvious and is the reason why I definitely can see Wade and Lebron being lower than they are.
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,879,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I think that picking being Durant, Kobe, Wade and Dirk right now is pretty fluid.

I still give Kobe the nod over wade defensively.
Wade has only ever made a few 2nd teams and last year not even that.
NBA & ABA All-Defensive Teams | Basketball-Reference.com

Kobe was still #1 all nba last year.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I just don't see how you can make a case that Wade is clearly better than 4-7 especially since he definitely didn't outplay Dirk in the finals last year and he had Lebron guarding him often instead of guys like terry\kidd\barea.
Well that's kind of what I was saying before. The top 7 at any given moment can play like the best in the league. Also, I know you're better than to bring up Kobe's all defensive team selections. We all know he's been getting in on reputation for quite a while now. At this stage he's probably going to wind up with more defensive selections than people like Gary Payton or Scottie Pippen. Nobody in their right minds would declare Kobe a better defender than either based on number of defensive awards, and it's an absolute joke to say Kobe was better defensively last year than Wade. I mean, Wade's the better all thief, the better shotblocker, better at playing the passing lanes, and ( at this point in Kobe's career) at least as good in straight up on-ball defense. By what measure is Kobe better defensively? Actually, if you really want to talk about who's a great defensive 2-guard, someone like Tony Allen is better than both. He simply doesn't have the reputation.

And I didn't make a case that Wade is 'clearly' better. In fact I haven't made a case that any of the top 7 are 'clearly' better than anyone else. All of those guys are studs, and well ranking them is just a subjective exercise in futility. I just don't see how anyone can rate a prime wade over a past his prime Kobe. Just can't buy that...not even for a dollar.
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,879,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatkins View Post
I agree. Wade was extremely inconsistent in the playoffs which I think should hurt his and Lebron's case. Head to head, Dirk's team outplayed their team and won a championship. I'm not even talking about Lebron guarding Dirk or vice versa, but I am saying if these two teams played each other like they did, who can you honestly said made the most difference for their team. The answer to me is obvious and is the reason why I definitely can see Wade and Lebron being lower than they are.
The thing with Lebron and Wade, individually they're better than when they're together. Which is why many people are not totally convinced that they're a 'great' duo, beyond just sheer talent level. Their games are similar with the same strengths and weaknesses, so it's a question of them taking away from each others games, not complementing each others games.

I think we also have to realize that everyone is high on Dirk after the championship, and it is well-deserved( and I'm a Dirk fan, will say that now) because he played out of his mind. But 2 years ago, no-one had Dirk over either Wade or Lebron, so it is a case of 'what have you done for me lately' in Basketball. Let's see how this season develops.
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:47 PM
 
Location: DMV
10,136 posts, read 11,645,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
The thing with Lebron and Wade, individually they're better than when they're together. Which is why many people are not totally convinced that they're a 'great' duo, beyond just sheer talent level. Their games are similar with the same strengths and weaknesses, so it's a question of them taking away from each others games, not complementing each others games.

I think we also have to realize that everyone is high on Dirk after the championship, and it is well-deserved( and I'm a Dirk fan, will say that now) because he played out of his mind. But 2 years ago, no-one had Dirk over either Wade or Lebron, so it is a case of 'what have you done for me lately' in Basketball. Let's see how this season develops.
Agreed and that's why these type of rankings should have a clear definition. If we base things off of last year, then Dirk definitely should be ahead of them, but if we are based this ranking on overall body of work and ability, then I definitely agree with your point about them being better individually.
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,363,480 times
Reputation: 3070
I agree these rankings need more criteria to truly have a discussion, but I tend to stay away from "x is better than y, because his team beat them in the last years playoffs." Mainly because its a recency bias, but it also is a limited sample, and a team game.
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Here or There
3,960 posts, read 2,511,925 times
Reputation: 1655
I just cant put a guy at #17 who cant hit a regular 15 foot jumpshot consistently...not saying 3pt range, just a normal jump shot. Plus, isnt the greatest free throw shooter either (Rondo).
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