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Old 01-11-2012, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Cook County
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I have always been one to say that people overrate the "mental" aspect of sports. I often say things like "clutch doesn't exist." I still believe those things with many situations/players, but I almost have to agree at this point when it comes to LBJ, he seems to defy those rules I have. Some of the crap I see has to mental with him.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,384,310 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I honestly have no answer for this.

I just know that almost every great player has undergone early harsh criticism but if they win a championship then suddenly all is forgiven.

Jordan, Kobe, Shaq....all were "flawed".
To be fair, I think Kobe's flaws/criticisms came more after he already had 3 rings.
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Old 01-12-2012, 07:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
To be fair, I think Kobe's flaws/criticisms came more after he already had 3 rings.
That was because the issues he had were covered up by the presence of Shaq. (I call this the Nick Andersen phenomenon. )

Suddenly Kobe was the face of the Lakers and wasn't getting as many easy baskets etc. and he was trying too hard and taking some bad shots too. He adjusted and after a few years started to play at the "MVP" level.

He has sure been blistering so far this season. You have to think he sees the comments from people about him not being what he once was and not being one of the top top players anymore and has responded.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post

He has sure been blistering so far this season. You have to think he sees the comments from people about him not being what he once was and not being one of the top top players anymore and has responded.
And then some, he looks about as explosive as 2-3 years ago.
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:33 PM
 
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Blake Griffin isn't better than Carmelo Anthony or Amare. The guy's been in the league all of one year...those guys are proven all stars.

Monta Ellis, as usual, is underrated. Guy is legit top 15 in the NBA, could make a case for top 10.

Derrick Rose over CP3 all day..everyday.
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Old 01-13-2012, 04:10 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
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I think with Lebron, it's a combination of,

-Youth, inexperience. He's 26 years old? I agree the excuses are running thin. Maybe 23 you can use that excuse. If he doesnt do something in another few years, he can't use the youth/inexperience factor.

-Distractions.

I.e. twitter, drama, 24/7 internet cycle. Every word is dissected. The magnifying glass has gone up 10x fold since 2000. Esp with the contract $$$, being a billion dollar athlete, etc.

I think he's a phenom, but is he a prodigy?

I would put Kobe in the prodigy category. I.e. studying tape when he's 10, high mental acuity for the game.

Physical phenom's I think are more dominant in their position. Going back to Chamberlain. Or Dwight Howard. But Lebron still has a bunch of time to win championships.
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:00 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John23 View Post
I think with Lebron, it's a combination of,

-Youth, inexperience. He's 26 years old? I agree the excuses are running thin. Maybe 23 you can use that excuse. If he doesnt do something in another few years, he can't use the youth/inexperience factor.
I don't think you can use the inexperience factor either. He's 27 in his 9th year, has had several deep playoff runs and a few finals appearances. The experience factor went out the window quite a while back.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I don't think you can use the inexperience factor either. He's 27 in his 9th year, has had several deep playoff runs and a few finals appearances. The experience factor went out the window quite a while back.
Jordan was 27 when he won his first championship.

Prior to that he was criticized as not being able to be a team player blah blah blah. Trust me, all my cousins were celtic fans and they didn't even regard him as being the equal of Larry Bird because Jordan couldn't win championships and wasn't the team player, just a me-me-me scorer. He just had big gaudy stats but stats don't win championships and so on and so forth.

Just pointing out that people made similar complaints about Jordan.

Heck, look at Kobe. If Shaq stayed in Orlando you can forget those first 3 rings as well.

Go back and look at the box scores from the Dallas finals. Heck, Lebron had a bad game 4 but otherwise was strong, especially with his game 5 triple double and game 6 too. Dirk had some bad shooting nights....especially game 6 but Dallas had some beastly shooting performances from guys like Jason Terry etc. All is forgiven for Dirk because his team won.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,896,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Jordan was 27 when he won his first championship.

Prior to that he was criticized as not being able to be a team player blah blah blah. Trust me, all my cousins were celtic fans and they didn't even regard him as being the equal of Larry Bird because Jordan couldn't win championships and wasn't the team player, just a me-me-me scorer. He just had big gaudy stats but stats don't win championships and so on and so forth.

Just pointing out that people made similar complaints about Jordan.

Heck, look at Kobe. If Shaq stayed in Orlando you can forget those first 3 rings as well.

Go back and look at the box scores from the Dallas finals. Heck, Lebron had a bad game 4 but otherwise was strong, especially with his game 5 triple double and game 6 too. Dirk had some bad shooting nights....especially game 6 but Dallas had some beastly shooting performances from guys like Jason Terry etc. All is forgiven for Dirk because his team won.
The critique on Jordan was that he was a one-man show, and that scoring champions don't win titles. He went on to disprove that theory 6 times. A rather silly critique when you look at it in retrospect because Jordan from the outset of his career had few reliable scoring options; Pippen didn't develop into a truly decent sidekick until the first title in 91.The knock on Jordan was never about his mental toughness, or coming up small in the clutch. In fact, Jordan's level of play PRIOR to winning the first ring was getting 'best player ever' talk. Yeah, maybe a bit silly as we're in a sport where we define true greatness by the amount of rings you lead a team to, but the mere fact that people were even having that kind of discussion shows you the level of play Jordan had reached before he won anything.

So no, in this case the complaints against Lebron are not the same as the knocks against Jordan. Jordan at 27 had 6 seasons of NBA experience. Lebron, at 27, is in his 9th year. So again, the idea that Lebron is still 'young and inexperienced' simply does not fly. Jordan was never known as one who buckled under pressure, or shied away from the spotlight. In fact, rising to the occasion when the stakes were highest is one of his enduring legacies. How about a 23 year old Jordan scoring 63 points against a prime Celtics squad with arguably the greatest front-line in NBA history? That's rising to the occasion, and Jordan was doing that from the outset, well before he had refined his game or learned how to win at the NBA level. He had all the reason in the world to buckle under the pressure that early in his career, but he didn't. Lebron is a 9 year veteran; he has no reason at this point.

In last year's finals, Lebron wasn't merely subpar by own previously established standards ( how GOOD was he against Chicago the prior round? Phenomenal), he was downright ordinary. A triple double in one of those games was possibly one of the most inconsequential triple doubles I've witnessed. The final box score doesn't show that Lebron didn't really have much REAL impact in that game. He merely stopped being aggressive, settled for jumpshots, and sought to give up the ball quickly when the pressure was on. The fact that he had a bonified top 5 player on the court in Wade, and another top 20 player in Bosh with him to take some of the pressure off, makes his play all the more puzzling. The weight of the world was NOT on his shoulders, and he came up small. There was and can be no excuse for that.

Last edited by Roman77; 01-13-2012 at 10:07 AM..
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:14 AM
 
52,281 posts, read 42,065,345 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
The critique on Jordan was that he was a one-man show, and that scoring champions don't win titles. He went on to disprove that theory 6 times. A rather silly critique when you look at it in retrospect because Jordan from the outset of his career had few reliable scoring options; Pippen didn't develop into a truly decent sidekick until the first title in 91.The knock on Jordan was never about his mental toughness, or coming up small in the clutch. In fact, Jordan's level of play PRIOR to winning the first ring was getting 'best player ever' talk. Yeah, maybe a bit silly as we're in a sport where we define true greatness by the amount of rings you lead a team to, but the mere fact that people were even having that kind of discussion shows you the level of play Jordan had reached before he won anything.

So no, in this case the complaints against Lebron are not the same as the knocks against Jordan. Jordan at 27 had 6 seasons of NBA experience. Lebron, at 27, is in his 9th year. So again, the idea that Lebron is still 'young and inexperienced' simply does not fly. Jordan was never known as one who buckled under pressure, or shied away from the spotlight. In fact, rising to the occasion when the stakes were highest is one of his enduring legacies. How about a 23 year old Jordan scoring 63 points against a prime Celtics squad with arguably the greatest front-line in NBA history? That's rising to the occasion, and Jordan was doing that from the outset, well before he had refined his game or learned how to win at the NBA level. He had all the reason in the world to buckle under the pressure that early in his career, but he didn't. Lebron is a 9 year veteran; he has no reason at this point.

In last year's finals, Lebron wasn't merely subpar by own previously established standards ( how GOOD was he against Chicago the prior round? Phenomenal), he was downright ordinary. A triple double in one of those games was possibly one of the most inconsequential triple doubles I've witnessed. The final box score doesn't show that Lebron didn't really have much REAL impact in that game. He merely stopped being aggressive, settled for jumpshots, and sought to give up the ball quickly when the pressure was on. The fact that he had a bonified top 5 player on the court in Wade, and another top 20 player in Bosh with him to take some of the pressure off, makes his play all the more puzzling. The weight of the world was NOT on his shoulders, and he came up small. There was and can be no excuse for that.
Dirk didn't have a gem of a series either....but he get's a pass because his supporting cast shot the lights out in a couple games.

Are we having this conversation if Barea, Terry etc. don't have some monster games thrown in the mix?

I'm just saying that in a number of these analysis the loser goes under a microscope and the winner gets a free pass.

It would be fun to sit down with you and re-watch the whole series over some brews, I enjoy your comments and it would be enlightening to point out where the defenses are focusing and what they are doing to stop Dirk or Lebron etc. and how it all goes down.
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