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Old 02-16-2012, 04:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermanpansy View Post
That's because there's defense being played in college.
Sorry sure handed ball handlers dont turn the ball over...good defense or not.
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Old 02-17-2012, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
Sorry sure handed ball handlers dont turn the ball over...good defense or not.
Like a good QB will never throw an interception, a good running back never fumbles, a great puck handler never gets it stolen, a great dribbler never gets the ball stolen, or a great pitcher never has a homerun hit off them?

A good defensive play can always create a turnover from even the greatest players. I hate the premise that is common to a lot of American sports fans that offense overrides defense when it is the other way around.
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
Like a good QB will never throw an interception, a good running back never fumbles, a great puck handler never gets it stolen, a great dribbler never gets the ball stolen, or a great pitcher never has a homerun hit off them?

A good defensive play can always create a turnover from even the greatest players. I hate the premise that is common to a lot of American sports fans that offense overrides defense when it is the other way around.
You might hate but its true, as for your other comparisons. We are talking about basketball not hockey or football. But anyway I'll play. You bettya that a fumble is a always a careless mistake by the running back. Everyone makes mistakes and no one is perfect but it is absolutely a mistake. And mistake is a deficiency on one persons part that can be completely prevented by that person regardless of the circumstances. In baseball the better analogy is, is a baserunner getting picked off always a mistake by the base runner, and of course yes it is(if the pitcher isn't breaking the rules and that is being overlooked ex Andy Petitte)

Whether offense overides defense is largely due to the rules of the game and nature of the enforcement of the rules and the nature of the game itself. Who is considered a greater player Dirk or Bruce Bowen? Steve Nash or Ron Artest? Who's team is going to win more games? The players that make more money tells you who professional gm's think are more valuable. Both of those guys for most of their careers have widely been considered nearly the worst defenders(Dirk and Nash) at their position in the entire league. Yes in basketball offense clearly overrides defense and its no where close to the other way around.

Last edited by jdm2008; 02-17-2012 at 11:55 PM..
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,946,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
You might hate but its true, as for your other comparisons. We are talking about basketball not hockey or football. But anyway I'll play. You bettya that a fumble is a always a careless mistake by the running back. Everyone makes mistakes and no one is perfect but it is absolutely a mistake. And mistake is a deficiency on one persons part that can be completely prevented by that person regardless of the circumstances. In baseball the better analogy is, is a baserunner getting picked off always a mistake by the base runner, and of course yes it is(if the pitcher isn't breaking the rules and that is being overlooked ex Andy Petitte)
The fumble. So the tackle never has anything to do with a fumble, where the defensive player rips the ball from their hands. Exhibit A. Adrian Peterson, top RB in NFL, got the ball taken away from Clay Matthews.

Packer's Clay Mathews strips Viking's Adrian Peterson for a touchdown - YouTube

Was that a mistake? No. Peterson did everything right. He just wasn't stronger than the defensive guy ripping the ball out of his hands while his teammates held him up (to make that play). In example of many where defense rules the offense.

Bring it back to the NBA... again, defense worked in the 80s/90s (the glory days) when they didn't get penalize for touch fouls (i.e. hand checks, after follow throughs, inside the key). Since interest in the NBA was losing due to how boring good defense can be (i.e. see Alabama/LSU part 1 this past college football season), David Stern and gang changed the calling to favor offensive players... thus resulting to defense slowly declining through the NBA and resulted in "who can flop better" in order to play any defense they can.

Quote:
Whether offense overides defense is largely due to the rules of the game and nature of the enforcement of the rules and the nature of the game itself. Who is considered a greater player Dirk or Bruce Bowen? Steve Nash or Ron Artest? Who's team is going to win more games? The players that make more money tells you who professional gm's think are more valuable. Both of those guys for most of their careers have widely been considered nearly the worst defenders(Dirk and Nash) at their position in the entire league. Yes in basketball offense clearly overrides defense and its no where close to the other way around.
So that explains Dennis Rodman... couldn't sink a bucket to save his life yet everyone knows his name from his defensive level of play...
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:55 AM
 
Location: :~)
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College Basketball is boring and thats due to the talent leaving school early. I am not holding those folks accountable because i would too. I actually blame the NCAA who refuses to provide a stipend to players in obvious financial dispair. We will not see an improvement until the NCAA gets off of their high horse does the right thing.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:12 AM
 
4,399 posts, read 9,058,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
The fumble. So the tackle never has anything to do with a fumble, where the defensive player rips the ball from their hands. Exhibit A. Adrian Peterson, top RB in NFL, got the ball taken away from Clay Matthews.

Packer's Clay Mathews strips Viking's Adrian Peterson for a touchdown - YouTube

Was that a mistake? No. Peterson did everything right. He just wasn't stronger than the defensive guy ripping the ball out of his hands while his teammates held him up (to make that play). In example of many where defense rules the offense.

Bring it back to the NBA... again, defense worked in the 80s/90s (the glory days) when they didn't get penalize for touch fouls (i.e. hand checks, after follow throughs, inside the key). Since interest in the NBA was losing due to how boring good defense can be (i.e. see Alabama/LSU part 1 this past college football season), David Stern and gang changed the calling to favor offensive players... thus resulting to defense slowly declining through the NBA and resulted in "who can flop better" in order to play any defense they can.


So that explains Dennis Rodman... couldn't sink a bucket to save his life yet everyone knows his name from his defensive level of play...
Adrian Petterson is notorious for coughing off the ball on fumbles. Almost as bad as Tiki Barber. And anyways his forward progress was stopped so he was down...Better Keep looking.
Dennis Rodman was a prolific rebounder and that what he's famous for along with his hair. But anyway why don't you address the two comparisons in the previous post. Also for good measure add Amare Stoudamire vs Ben Wallace.
And Dennis Rodman was probably the best defender of all time, but do people put him in the same league as Larry Bird, Kevin Mchale, Magic Johnson, Dr J, Wilt, Kareem etc? No they do no

Last edited by jdm2008; 02-18-2012 at 10:21 AM..
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Old 02-18-2012, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
2,532 posts, read 2,946,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm2008 View Post
Adrian Petterson is notorious for coughing off the ball on fumbles. Almost as bad as Tiki Barber. And anyways his forward progress was stopped so he was down...Better Keep looking.
Excuses He had that ball protected and it was pulled away from him by defense. Plain and simple.

Quote:
Dennis Rodman was a prolific rebounder and that what he's famous for along with his hair.
Sure but he is most famous for his overbearing, over-the-top defense. He got so many people to throw blows at him for it.

Quote:
But anyway why don't you address the two comparisons in the previous post. Also for good measure add Amare Stoudamire vs Ben Wallace.
Why? Neither will make the HoF. Amare is a one trick offensive pony with zero defensive skills. Ben Wallace was a good defender and rebounder for his size with little to no offense. Again, no one will remember these two 20 or so years after they retire.

The ones they will remember are the Kobes, Dwights, and Lebrons all who play good defense as well to their scoring.

Quote:
And Dennis Rodman was probably the best defender of all time, but do people put him in the same league as Larry Bird, Kevin Mchale, Magic Johnson, Dr J, Wilt, Kareem etc? No they do no
Outside J, all those guys were great defenders. They are in a different league because they also were offensive machines. Note Dr J isn't typically at the same level as the others you listed.

Since you want me to answer your others...
Quote:
Who is considered a greater player Dirk or Bruce Bowen?
Bowen has never been a starter and plays at a different position. Way to compare them. Let's do equals... Who is considered a greater player Dirk or Tim Duncan (who also plays great defense)?

Quote:
Steve Nash or Ron Artest?
Too different style players and plays at different positions. Your comparisons suck. Let's do equals... Who is considered a greater player Steve Nash or Chris Paul (who also plays great defense)?

For fun... Why isn't Dominique Wilkins in the same breath as Magic or Bird? He was a top 5 scorer for tons of years yet most people now-a-days forgot about him. Could it be the fact that defense wise he wasn't that good at all... hmm...
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Old 02-18-2012, 02:50 PM
 
4,399 posts, read 9,058,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post

Bowen has never been a starter and plays at a different position. Way to compare them. Let's do equals... Who is considered a greater player Dirk or Tim Duncan (who also plays great defense)?
Why do you think Bruce Bowen wasn't a starter? I don't think I need to elaborate. And we are disputing the fact that offense has a disparate impact over defense. So it makes sense to compare one dimensional offensive players and one dimensional defensive players. Tim Duncan is a better offensive player than Dirk. Ditto for Paul. The previous comparisons are clearly more apt for this discussion.
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Old 02-18-2012, 02:53 PM
 
4,399 posts, read 9,058,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post

Why? Neither will make the HoF. Amare is a one trick offensive pony with zero defensive skills. Ben Wallace was a good defender and rebounder for his size with little to no offense. Again, no one will remember these two 20 or so years after they retire.
It does not matter who will remember them, it matters what their impact on the game was. And it's clear as day that Amare impact is larger. Who cares what some casual basketball fan remembers 10 or 15 years from now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
Excuses He had that ball protected and it was pulled away from him by defense. Plain and simple.
Is that Tiki Barber I hear? I'm sure all his fumbles were just good defense too.
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Old 02-18-2012, 03:04 PM
 
4,399 posts, read 9,058,083 times
Reputation: 2352
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncopus99 View Post
For fun... Why isn't Dominique Wilkins in the same breath as Magic or Bird? He was a top 5 scorer for tons of years yet most people now-a-days forgot about him. Could it be the fact that defense wise he wasn't that good at all... hmm...
Dominique Wilkins never even won an MVP. Never won a title. Won 1 scoring title. While Magic and Larry played on dynasties. That's why. And Larry wasn't a great defender either.
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