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Old 03-19-2012, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWatson13 View Post

Jordan and Kobe averaged between 5-8 assists most seasons, this is pretty amazing for shooting guards that shoot 20 times a game and are relied on to score.
Correction: Jordan averaged between 5-8 during his prime, and that was playing with Scottie Pippen who averaged like 6 himself once he hit his stride. Kobe, on the other hand, has never exceeded 6 assists, whether inside or outside the triangle offense, and didn't have a 'Pippen' like player on the floor with him to curb some of his assist numbers.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:59 AM
 
Location: The "Rock"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Correction: Jordan averaged between 5-8 during his prime, and that was playing with Scottie Pippen who averaged like 6 himself once he hit his stride. Kobe, on the other hand, has never exceeded 6 assists, whether inside or outside the triangle offense, and didn't have a 'Pippen' like player on the floor with him to curb some of his assist numbers.


Definitely... Pippen was beast as well.

Jordan's assists and rebound numbers are both curbed because of Pippen.

Kobe is a top 3-5 player all time depending on who you ask. But he is the 2nd greatest shooting guard. That's just the way it is...
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:05 AM
 
51,940 posts, read 41,806,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. GE View Post


Definitely... Pippen was beast as well.

Jordan's assists and rebound numbers are both curbed because of Pippen.

Kobe is a top 3-5 player all time depending on who you ask. But he is the 2nd greatest shooting guard. That's just the way it is...
Depends how you define your top 5. Career accomplishments or building a roster or ability at thier peak?

If you go by taking players a their peak ability, I would take shaq and Olajuwon over him along with Jordan and Duncan....and that's without setting the way-back machine to consider Russell, Walton and many others.

Going by career accomplishments then top 5 is feasible by the time he completes his career.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Earth
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He'll definitely have a 'top-5' career, in terms of career accolades. In terms of on-court impact, talent, skills......hmmmm Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic are my top 5. Next 5 are Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Kobe( not necessarily in that order though) and I have to throw Oscar in there. Kobe is definitely one of the top 5 most 'skilled' perimeter players to play; his biggest Achilles heel is questionable decision-making and a career-long struggle to balance scoring and facilitating. Jordan mastered it by the time he was winning titles, Kobe still struggles to find that balance after 15 years. He'll either be in scoring mode, or facilitating mode, but rarely both in one game.

The thing is with Kobe, I think if people were going to 'generally' consider him top 5, they would have by now. At this stage his defining attribute may be his longevity, which admittedly is quite remarkable. There's sort of a Mount Rushmore of NBA greats ( Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russel, Bird, Magic). It's just awfully tough for someone 'recent' to come along and break into that group, and frankly some of it may be nostalgia. I grew up with Jordan, Magic, and Bird, so as far as perimeter guys go they'll always be tops for me, even though in reality Kobe's talent and skill level is right there with them.

Last edited by Roman77; 03-19-2012 at 10:58 AM..
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:04 PM
 
3,129 posts, read 5,308,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Correction: Jordan averaged between 5-8 during his prime, and that was playing with Scottie Pippen who averaged like 6 himself once he hit his stride. Kobe, on the other hand, has never exceeded 6 assists, whether inside or outside the triangle offense, and didn't have a 'Pippen' like player on the floor with him to curb some of his assist numbers.
You didn't correct anything. Jordan had much better role players and shooters around him to achieve those assist numbers, Paxon, Hodges, Kerr, Armstrong...those guys could shoot.

Kobe has FIsher, a freaking 40% shooter by his side his entire career, Smush Parker, etc etc

It is painfully obvious that Kobe passes the ball and watches like we do a brick go up b/c he is surrounded by non-shooters. On the other hand Jordan had much better shooters around him his entire career.

I find it hilarious people call Kobe a ball hog when he puts up 5 assists most nights for his career when Kevin Durant doesn't know what an assist is.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:27 PM
 
Location: The "Rock"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
He'll definitely have a 'top-5' career, in terms of career accolades. In terms of on-court impact, talent, skills......hmmmm Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic are my top 5. Next 5 are Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Kobe( not necessarily in that order though) and I have to throw Oscar in there. Kobe is definitely one of the top 5 most 'skilled' perimeter players to play; his biggest Achilles heel is questionable decision-making and a career-long struggle to balance scoring and facilitating. Jordan mastered it by the time he was winning titles, Kobe still struggles to find that balance after 15 years. He'll either be in scoring mode, or facilitating mode, but rarely both in one game.

The thing is with Kobe, I think if people were going to 'generally' consider him top 5, they would have by now. At this stage his defining attribute may be his longevity, which admittedly is quite remarkable. There's sort of a Mount Rushmore of NBA greats ( Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russel, Bird, Magic). It's just awfully tough for someone 'recent' to come along and break into that group, and frankly some of it may be nostalgia. I grew up with Jordan, Magic, and Bird, so as far as perimeter guys go they'll always be tops for me, even though in reality Kobe's talent and skill level is right there with them.

More Great Points... reading this makes me want to change my top 5 almost. but as a Lakers fan my top 5 still remains...

Jordan > Magic > Kareem > Bird > Kobe...
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:35 PM
 
Location: The "Rock"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWatson13 View Post
You didn't correct anything. Jordan had much better role players and shooters around him to achieve those assist numbers, Paxon, Hodges, Kerr, Armstrong...those guys could shoot.

Yea... Horry, Rice, Fox, Shaw, Harper, & Fisher are just terrible compared to those guys!
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. GE View Post
Yea... Horry, Rice, Fox, Shaw, Harper, & Fisher are just terrible compared to those guys!
I seem to remember some guy named Shaq drawing tons of double teams and then you have Gasol who is a very good shooter.

Honestly, Kobe shoots more 3pt and jumpshots. Jordan drives to the rim and plays closer to the basket.

If you have each players FG% considered identical but just adjust for distribution of shots you will see.....

FG% kobe jordan
3pt 38% 5 2
mid-range 43% 10 8
at basket 60% 5 10
46.0% 51.0%

Essentially, this shows how just shot selection can create a 5% different in FG between two shooters. These aren't meant to be 100% correct but to rather use some reasonable assumptions to show how shot selection and style alone can make differences like this.
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:08 PM
 
Location: BMORE!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. GE View Post
You obviously did not watch Jordan play because this is so not true...

Ask the Lakers, Suns, & Jazz. All of whom saw Jordan defer to Paxton & Kerr in critical moments in the Finals. And against the Blazers in the Finals he spent almost the whole 4th quarter in a the clinching game on the bench cheering his team on because he was playing terrible.

Jordan played within the offense.

Yea he played like your description in his early years but that was because he wasnt surrounded by any talent whatsoever. Once the talent came and Phil came on broad, Jordan became a facilitator as well. Not a point guard facilitator but a shooting guard facilitator.

He would have no problem playing with Magic. None whatsoever...
I'm one of the biggest Jordan fans on the planet. And jordan was a score first kind of player and there are multiple accounts about Phil Jackson cursing him during timeouts for NOT passing the ball.
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWatson13 View Post
You didn't correct anything. Jordan had much better role players and shooters around him to achieve those assist numbers, Paxon, Hodges, Kerr, Armstrong...those guys could shoot.
Except when he averaged 8 assists, a career high, only Hodges and Paxson were on the team that could be classified as 'shooters', as far as notable role players he had 2nd year players Pippen and Grant who weren't remotely close to what they would become. Are you trying to argue that having a PRIME Shaquille Oneal, Robery Horry, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, and Derek Fisher in the early 2000's wasn't enough to get at least 7 assists, particularly since Kobe was the primary ballhandler on that team? Please.....he could have gotten 5 assists just feeding it to Shaq alone.

Hell, even now with the 2nd best center in Bynum and a top 5 power forward in Gasol, he's still only averaging 4.8 assists, and that's in an open offense that's basically giving Kobe carte blanche with the ball. Not nearly as restrictive and limiting as the triangle offense is for personal assist numbers. So drop the excuses, Kobe simply doesn't have the acumen to average anything more than 6 assists, regardless of the offense or the quality of his teammates.
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