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Old 03-30-2012, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Kobe is pushing for that scoring title, Lakers be damned.

Shooting more and at only a 42.5% accuracy which is his lowest since his ROOKIE YEAR. Too bad he doesn't have any teamates that are good?
It's an ego thing. Kobe was getting written off last year based on how the Lakers crashed and burned out of the playoffs, and how he looked 'aged'. So I feel it's a personal thing with him to re-establish himself as a top-3 player, Lakers be damned. There's no way he needs to be averaging 28 points at an Iverson-esque 42% clip, not with Bynum and Gasol down low which still gives the Lakers a big advantage inside most nights.

Which raises a point I made some time ago: is this what we're going to see for the next 5 seasons? An aging gunslinger chucking his way towards the all-time scoring mark, at the team's expense? Stay tuned.
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:09 AM
 
51,912 posts, read 41,783,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
It's an ego thing. Kobe was getting written off last year based on how the Lakers crashed and burned out of the playoffs, and how he looked 'aged'. So I feel it's a personal thing with him to re-establish himself as a top-3 player, Lakers be damned. There's no way he needs to be averaging 28 points at an Iverson-esque 42% clip, not with Bynum and Gasol down low which still gives the Lakers a big advantage inside most nights.

Which raises a point I made some time ago: is this what we're going to see for the next 5 seasons? An aging gunslinger chucking his way towards the all-time scoring mark, at the team's expense? Stay tuned.
If it is....there will come a breaking point with Bynum.
Pau is already sick of Kobe but he knows that Kobe's sheet don't stink in LA.....yet.

This is going to be interesting....and EXACTLY why I started this thread. How he handles himself the next couple years is going to have a big impact on his legacy. He can push for all-time pts scored etc. and he might just do that because he knows they don't have the squad to win a championship.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,878,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
If it is....there will come a breaking point with Bynum.
Pau is already sick of Kobe but he knows that Kobe's sheet don't stink in LA.....yet.

This is going to be interesting....and EXACTLY why I started this thread. How he handles himself the next couple years is going to have a big impact on his legacy. He can push for all-time pts scored etc. and he might just do that because he knows they don't have the squad to win a championship.
Another theory: Kobe knows that he's measured against Jordan. Jordan has 6 titles, all of which he won as the unquestioned Alpha of his team. Out of Kobe's 5 titles, 3 were as Shaquille O'neal's sidekick( albeit a very strong sidekick). I suspect that perception eats at him more than he lets on.

So, perhaps a part of him feels that the only way he can equal or exceed Jordan in the public's eye, is to win more titles as 'the man'. Let's face it, barring a career threatening injury he's going to overtake Jordan in points, albeit taking several extra seasons to reach his total. It's the quality vs quantity argument. But ultimately, it comes down to rings when you're comparing the best of the best. And because of that, I don't think Kobe will ever defer more to Andrew Bynum( at this point, he clearly should) because he needs to prove that he's still 'the guy', which is his mind equates to chucking to 30 points a game.

I think the Lakers would be far better off if he scaled back his scoring, say to 23-24 points a game, and feature Bynum more prominently in the offense, as he's clearly capable of being a 20-10 guy. It will also lessen the load on those aging legs because let's be real, after 17 seasons he shouldn't be carrying this kind of burden, and with Bynum and Gasol around, no real need to.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,690 posts, read 2,470,972 times
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Interesting stuff from everyone. A few thoughts;
1) Kobe's secret desire is to top MJ, (ok so that's not a secret). In my opinion, to even make that topic a conversation lasting longer than 5 seconds, he has to do two things; win 7 rings (one more than MJ) AND put in another 3 or more quality seasons (25ppg at least). Unfortunately for him, those two goals are mutually exclusive at this point in his career. If he wants to win, he will have to cut back the shooting and let Bynum and Gasol be more assertive. If he wants the scoring titles then he will NOT be winning any rings. So I guess Kobe is going to have to pick one or the other.

2) As far as the question of who gets to play with MJ on an all time team, between A) Magic and B) Kobe, the answer has to be C) none of the above. The problem we all tend to have is that we just say "just pick the best pg, best sg, best sf, etc...but what MAKES those guys as good as they are is the type and quality of players around them. Magic works best in a fast break offense...and while MJ could get out and run (in his younger days anyway), you would be losing a big part of what makes him dominant playing him with Magic. MJ's MO in the 80s was "give me the ball, clear half the court, and let me go to work, either I'll take my defender off the dribble, get to the hole and dunk, or get to the hole and get the foul or get to the hole and get the and one". In the 90s Old MJ's style was "get me the ball on the block and let me introduce my defender to the fade away". If you had Magic "running" that sort of offense, just getting the ball to MJ and getting out of the way, then you wouldn't be getting the full value that he brings to a game. So to me, if you are building an all time team with MJ on it, then you have to get two "do everything" guys, I would pick Lebron and Pippen, then get two rebounders/shot blockers (take your pick, tons of guys there). I do agree with the posters who say that Kobe would be irrelevant on a team that already has MJ.

One question I would like to pose to the forum is this: What if you made MJ and Kobe swap careers? ie, Kobe had MJ's team and played back in MJ's era, and the same for MJ. Let's start with Kobe. Keep in mind that from 1984 to about 1990, MJ had the green light to shoot as much as he wanted. Pippen and Horace didnt get drafted till the mid eighties, and were not ready for primetime till the early 90s (to the oldtimers, remember how Pippen was Rodman's "female dog" for soo long?, MJ would publicly question Pippen's ability, not good times for Pip).
So, MJ could shoot as much as he wanted with no repercussions. He ignored Phil Jackson's pleas to share the ball for years. Given that freedom, could Kobe replicate MJ's scoring feats from the 80s? I say he could. Shoot as much as you want, Win scoring titles, ignore team mates and flame out in the playoffs? not a problem for Kobe. Now I dont know if he would have been quite as efficient as Young MJ was in the 80s, shooting over 50%, but I do think he could have come close to replicating those numbers. As for the 1990s, if Kobe could share the ball with Shaq, then he absolutely could share the ball with Pippen, Grant and Kerr.

Now, the harder question. Could MJ submit himself to being second banana behind Shaq? I dont know. MJ had been the man in college, the man on the 84 olympic team, the man in Chicago, the man on the dream team...EVERYWHERE. One thing that interested me. I read a book on his last season with the Wizards in 03. The coaching staff suggested that he take a step back and allow then teammate Jerry Stackhouse to take up the scoring. MJ refused. Flat out. He kept going hard until his knees gave out, and once he started missing games due to injury the Wiz didnt make the playoffs. Now I'm no fan of Stack, but back in 03, it wasnt like he was a scrub, or unproven rookie. Stack had been an allstar, he had done some things in the NBA, MJ was 40 something years old, past his prime (washed up in my opinion, only because he had created such a high standard in the past) and he STILL couldnt let go. But I'm supposed to believe that a young MJ at the height of his powers would have stepped aside for Shaq? For all the bitching we do at Kobe, we have to remember that this is EXACTLY what he did. He let Shaq be the man, did everything else when needed to help the team win, and he helped win 3 rings. That is hard to do. Plenty of guys would fill Young MJ's role and chuck up shots. Very few would do what Kobe did. Take that for what you will.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Earth
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A lot of 'what-ifs' Biafra4life( Would Jordan play certain Banana, What if Jordan and Kobe swapped), I won't spend time tackling those, but I do agree with you that Kobe pursuing the scoring title isn't in the Lakers best interests as far as them pursuing rings. He has GOT to scale back. He simply isn't capable of being an efficient volume scorer anymore, and well frankly he never was the most efficient to begin with ( though his field goal percentage would be higher historically if he didn't shoot so many threes).

I'm not so sure I agree with your assertions about Jordan and Magic playing together. I think Jordan was versatile enough to play in a variety of settings. He was an all-time great finisher on the break, but clearly and obviously dominant in the half-court. And you have to figure that on an 'all-time' team, that all of those guys would be 'playing a role'; each would have to scale back somewhat in order for the team to gel. So Jordan isn't going to monopolize the ball if he's got Bird, Magic, Wilt/Kareem/Russell, Duncan/Malone, and that caliber of player around him.

Having said that, a well-reasoned post overall.....
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Wylie, Texas
1,690 posts, read 2,470,972 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
A lot of 'what-ifs' Biafra4life( Would Jordan play certain Banana, What if Jordan and Kobe swapped), I won't spend time tackling those, but I do agree with you that Kobe pursuing the scoring title isn't in the Lakers best interests as far as them pursuing rings. He has GOT to scale back. He simply isn't capable of being an efficient volume scorer anymore, and well frankly he never was the most efficient to begin with ( though his field goal percentage would be higher historically if he didn't shoot so many threes).

I'm not so sure I agree with your assertions about Jordan and Magic playing together. I think Jordan was versatile enough to play in a variety of settings. He was an all-time great finisher on the break, but clearly and obviously dominant in the half-court. And you have to figure that on an 'all-time' team, that all of those guys would be 'playing a role'; each would have to scale back somewhat in order for the team to gel. So Jordan isn't going to monopolize the ball if he's got Bird, Magic, Wilt/Kareem/Russell, Duncan/Malone, and that caliber of player around him.

Having said that, a well-reasoned post overall.....
ah come on Greg, that's one of the best part of arguing sports! the big what ifs

I agree that both MJ and Magic could and would scale back to play together, but I would venture to say that an MJ on an all star team that accentuated his strengths (playing with Lebron, and Pippen plus two bigs, no traditional point), would beat a team with MJ and a traditional all star team, simply because MJ could be MJ and still be backed up by a world class supporting cast that would be able to play FEROCIOUS D, great ball handling, rebounding and anything else needed just like the old Bulls teams, only better. The all star team would have holes, (magic wasnt great defensively, neither was Bird), plus I think the same issues between MJ and Magic would pop up with the other guys...Bird would be a TERRIBLE fit for a showtime offense run by Magic. They just wouldnt complement each other very well. I've always been curious to know how that 1992 Dream team would have done in later years, when the rest of the world caught up with the US. Looking back their styles just clashed, but with no real challenge it didnt matter.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:21 PM
JL
 
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Kobe is going after that all time scoring record which is one of the reasons he doesn't want to have his minutes cut down. I don't think he cares if his body gets worn down by the time playoffs come around. Also, i don't see him being second fiddle to Bynum or Gasol, thus he will make himself the first option ALWAYS! I think the Shaq effect has affected him till this day. I bet deep down he doesn't want Bynum to totally dominate, thus coach Brown might tell Kobe to make Bynum the first option. We all know he is going after MJ, so Kobe will try to make it as close as possible for his own legacy. He should be able to pass MJ for 3rd all time scorer when his current contract ends two more seasons(2013-14) after this.

I see Pau being traded this summer especially if they don't win a title. The Lakers picked up Bynum's option for 2012-13 season, but i have a feeling Bynum will not sign an extension if Kobe keeps chucking. Bynum will want to be the 1st option, so he might have to move on. Interesting to see if Bynum gets traded if he doesn't sign an extension during the 2012-2013 season.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:21 PM
 
51,912 posts, read 41,783,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biafra4life View Post
Interesting stuff from everyone. A few thoughts;
1) Kobe's secret desire is to top MJ, (ok so that's not a secret). In my opinion, to even make that topic a conversation lasting longer than 5 seconds, he has to do two things; win 7 rings (one more than MJ) AND put in another 3 or more quality seasons (25ppg at least). Unfortunately for him, those two goals are mutually exclusive at this point in his career. If he wants to win, he will have to cut back the shooting and let Bynum and Gasol be more assertive. If he wants the scoring titles then he will NOT be winning any rings. So I guess Kobe is going to have to pick one or the other.

2) As far as the question of who gets to play with MJ on an all time team, between A) Magic and B) Kobe, the answer has to be C) none of the above. The problem we all tend to have is that we just say "just pick the best pg, best sg, best sf, etc...but what MAKES those guys as good as they are is the type and quality of players around them. Magic works best in a fast break offense...and while MJ could get out and run (in his younger days anyway), you would be losing a big part of what makes him dominant playing him with Magic. MJ's MO in the 80s was "give me the ball, clear half the court, and let me go to work, either I'll take my defender off the dribble, get to the hole and dunk, or get to the hole and get the foul or get to the hole and get the and one". In the 90s Old MJ's style was "get me the ball on the block and let me introduce my defender to the fade away". If you had Magic "running" that sort of offense, just getting the ball to MJ and getting out of the way, then you wouldn't be getting the full value that he brings to a game. So to me, if you are building an all time team with MJ on it, then you have to get two "do everything" guys, I would pick Lebron and Pippen, then get two rebounders/shot blockers (take your pick, tons of guys there). I do agree with the posters who say that Kobe would be irrelevant on a team that already has MJ.

One question I would like to pose to the forum is this: What if you made MJ and Kobe swap careers? ie, Kobe had MJ's team and played back in MJ's era, and the same for MJ. Let's start with Kobe. Keep in mind that from 1984 to about 1990, MJ had the green light to shoot as much as he wanted. Pippen and Horace didnt get drafted till the mid eighties, and were not ready for primetime till the early 90s (to the oldtimers, remember how Pippen was Rodman's "female dog" for soo long?, MJ would publicly question Pippen's ability, not good times for Pip).
So, MJ could shoot as much as he wanted with no repercussions. He ignored Phil Jackson's pleas to share the ball for years. Given that freedom, could Kobe replicate MJ's scoring feats from the 80s? I say he could. Shoot as much as you want, Win scoring titles, ignore team mates and flame out in the playoffs? not a problem for Kobe. Now I dont know if he would have been quite as efficient as Young MJ was in the 80s, shooting over 50%, but I do think he could have come close to replicating those numbers. As for the 1990s, if Kobe could share the ball with Shaq, then he absolutely could share the ball with Pippen, Grant and Kerr.

Now, the harder question. Could MJ submit himself to being second banana behind Shaq? I dont know. MJ had been the man in college, the man on the 84 olympic team, the man in Chicago, the man on the dream team...EVERYWHERE. One thing that interested me. I read a book on his last season with the Wizards in 03. The coaching staff suggested that he take a step back and allow then teammate Jerry Stackhouse to take up the scoring. MJ refused. Flat out. He kept going hard until his knees gave out, and once he started missing games due to injury the Wiz didnt make the playoffs. Now I'm no fan of Stack, but back in 03, it wasnt like he was a scrub, or unproven rookie. Stack had been an allstar, he had done some things in the NBA, MJ was 40 something years old, past his prime (washed up in my opinion, only because he had created such a high standard in the past) and he STILL couldnt let go. But I'm supposed to believe that a young MJ at the height of his powers would have stepped aside for Shaq? For all the bitching we do at Kobe, we have to remember that this is EXACTLY what he did. He let Shaq be the man, did everything else when needed to help the team win, and he helped win 3 rings. That is hard to do. Plenty of guys would fill Young MJ's role and chuck up shots. Very few would do what Kobe did. Take that for what you will.
"chuck up shots" tells me you have started happy hour early this Friday.

First 5 years of his career Jordan shot 51.3% on 23 shots per game.
Kobe has never shot better than 46.9% in any season.
Kobe had a number of seasons after Shaq left including the one where he took over 27 shots per game to show that he couldn't duplicate what Jordan did...and his team couldn't even make the playoffs when he did it.

Second, "let shaq be the man" ROFLMAO. Kobe's first ring came in a series where he and Glenn Rice were virtually tied for 2nd in scoring with about 1/2 the total points Shaq had in the series. Kobe didn't even play in one of the finals games and Shaq could have one that series with Kobe sitting it out.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:23 PM
 
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The bottom line is that Kobe this year is taking 23.4 shots a game at 42.5%.

He looked like crap vs. the Thunder and utterly choked in the 2nd half.
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Old 03-30-2012, 03:31 PM
 
Location: The "Rock"
2,551 posts, read 2,413,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
First 5 years of his career Jordan shot 51.3% on 23 shots per game.
Thanks for pointing this out... As soon as i read Bia's post I wanted to go this route on a retort, lol.

People have distorted memories of what Jordan was for some reason. I don't understand it...
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