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Old 03-12-2012, 05:02 PM
 
51,911 posts, read 41,783,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Gasol is 32. Bynum is young, after that you've got Artest at 33, Fisher at 37, and a bunch of mostly average/mediocre role players playing behind Kobe.

I like how you said the Celtics 3 best players are all over 35, but totally ignore the fact that Rondo is 25. Reality is both teams are past their peak in their current iteration, so we can expect their lineups to look quite different in 2-3 years.
Funny how Celtics fans can recognize this and the Laker fans have zero clue. Probably because they don't watch the games and instead text constantly and so forth.....

Lakers fans lose faith, predict first-round exit - NBA - Sporting News

Then again, it's just an irrational 15%....
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:12 AM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,195,031 times
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with all the talk we have had of kobe maybe going for the all time scoring record, i was looking at the list a few minutes ago (duncan just passed the clyde so had to go see who was next) something occurred to me. now kobe i think honestly wants that title, all time most points, BUT if things turn south for him, i would be willing to bet he would settle for passing jordan at #3. he might just be gunning for passing jordan so that his name comes before jordan on the list.

just a thought, but it would not surprise me in the slightest if thats the case.
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,878,906 times
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He'll pass Jordan on a number of lists simply by longevity. Reality is Jordan accomplished more, with better stats, in 14 seasons than Kobe has in 16( and counting). It's going to take Kobe till his 18th season to pass Jordan in scoring.

As for the argument that Kobe's first few years were stunted by Shaq, I don't think that Shaq's presence stunted his scoring chances as much as the pro-Kobe crowd likes to tout. Kobe was averaging 28.5 points in 2001, 25.2 in 2002, and 30.0 in 2003. Prior to that he simply wasn't good enough to do better. The only year after Shaq's departure which greatly deviates from those averages is Kobe's 35.4 in 2006, when the Lakers were offensively impotent. Otherwise, all his post-Shaq scoring years were in line stat-wise with what Kobe was doing after 2001 WITH prime Shaq in the line-up( a couple of 30ppg seasons with most between 25 and 28 ppg). .

It can also not be discounted that Jordan missed the majority of the 86 season, which probably was worth a few thousand points as he certainly would have averaged at least 30 that year, the entire 94 season and a good chunk of 95. That's at least 5,000 points that Jordan lost between 1984 and 1998. He'd probably have wound up the league's leading scorer all-time in 1999 at 36, and would have taken him only 15 seasons to do it. It's going to take Kobe 20 plus seasons to pass Kareem, and that's assuming he's scoring in the 20's for another 5 HEALTHY seasons.
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:49 AM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,195,031 times
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In the lOng run only "die hard" nba fans will look at all of that info. When casual fans go look at these lists (casual fan being 75% of all fans) they will look at the lists and see Kobe ahead of Jordan and being more recent in memory a lot of those casual fans are going to conclude that Kobe had to be better because he is ahead of Jordan on such and such list. Hell 75% of fans don't even realize that jordan missed nearly a whole season due to injury.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Earth
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It's a generational thing. I am old enough to have seen Jordan in his youth( I assume you are as well Rigas), so it's pretty much impossible to explain to the guys that grew up on Kobe that we've seen his act before, done more efficiently. Does Kobe do some things better? Sure, but that doesn't say much. Lots of players do things better than Jordan. It's never been that he was the best at everything, it's that he was very good to great at every aspect, turned weaknesses into strengths, and just had unbreakable will and desire to win at any cost. Kobe probably most resembles Jordan in terms of style, competitiveness and statline, but at best he's probably 85% of the player Jordan was. Talent for talent, skill for skill they're on the same tier, but Jordan's IQ and decision making trumps Kobe's, making for a more efficient player. There's also the physical advantage that Jordan had, allowing him to do certain things that Kobe simply isn't capable of physically.

You probably still can't convince anyone from the 60's that Oscar isn't the greatest player ever. That's how it is in the sports-world.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:20 AM
 
Location: spring tx
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Yeah well Kobe jumped over an Aston Martin! So there!!!! Jordan never did that!

Wait it was fake? No way!
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
Yeah well Kobe jumped over an Aston Martin! So there!!!! Jordan never did that!

Wait it was fake? No way!

Ahhh but you see Kobe never did this!!


"The Showdown" - Bird vs. Jordan McDonald's ad - 1993 - YouTube



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Old 03-16-2012, 06:42 AM
 
3,129 posts, read 5,307,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
He'll pass Jordan on a number of lists simply by longevity. Reality is Jordan accomplished more, with better stats, in 14 seasons than Kobe has in 16( and counting). It's going to take Kobe till his 18th season to pass Jordan in scoring.

As for the argument that Kobe's first few years were stunted by Shaq, I don't think that Shaq's presence stunted his scoring chances as much as the pro-Kobe crowd likes to tout. Kobe was averaging 28.5 points in 2001, 25.2 in 2002, and 30.0 in 2003. Prior to that he simply wasn't good enough to do better. The only year after Shaq's departure which greatly deviates from those averages is Kobe's 35.4 in 2006, when the Lakers were offensively impotent. Otherwise, all his post-Shaq scoring years were in line stat-wise with what Kobe was doing after 2001 WITH prime Shaq in the line-up( a couple of 30ppg seasons with most between 25 and 28 ppg). .

It can also not be discounted that Jordan missed the majority of the 86 season, which probably was worth a few thousand points as he certainly would have averaged at least 30 that year, the entire 94 season and a good chunk of 95. That's at least 5,000 points that Jordan lost between 1984 and 1998. He'd probably have wound up the league's leading scorer all-time in 1999 at 36, and would have taken him only 15 seasons to do it. It's going to take Kobe 20 plus seasons to pass Kareem, and that's assuming he's scoring in the 20's for another 5 HEALTHY seasons.
You forgot to mention Kobe started off the bench his first couple of years and also has played in 2 strike shortened seasons.
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:44 AM
 
3,129 posts, read 5,307,859 times
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People can hate Kobe as a person but as a player the league will be far worse when he he gone. He didn't retire 3 times, he has pushed as hard as he could go for 16 seasons. That is incredible as he has been a top 5 player most of those seasons.

His competitive spirit and worth ethic is old school. The new age jack asses know nothing about it or the respect for the game. Kobe never takes a night off and without him the Lakers would completely suck the last 10+ years.

Look at his impact on the Olympic team. Nuff said
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,878,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWatson13 View Post
You forgot to mention Kobe started off the bench his first couple of years and also has played in 2 strike shortened seasons.
Whose problem is that? If he was good enough to start when he entered the league, he would have. This season is still a 66 game season, so that's not much time lost. Jordan missed the entire 86 season practically. He also missed most of the 95 season. That easily negates the 'strike' seasons that Kobe has played through.

Let's make this simple: remove Kobe's first 3 seasons, because he came off the bench for the first 2 years and the 3rd was a lockout year. Let's hypothetically 'start' his career in 1999-2000, when he starting putting up big numbers. Now let's remove Jordan's last 2 seasons with the Wizards. Guess what, Jordan's numbers and accomplishments still outpace Kobe's when you only look at their 'prime' years.

And again, don't want to hear the 'he played with Shaq' excuse. Kobe's post-Shaq averages are basically the same as what he was doing WITH Shaq once he got the playing time. Kobe has a 28.5 year, and a 30.0 year, WITH Shaq. Only twice has he exceeded that 30.0 once Shaq left, in 2006 at 35ppg and 2007 at 31ppg with an offensively challenged Lakers squad. Nothing since 2005 has stopped him from putting up the kind of numbers Jordan put up in his prime. Call me when Kobe averages 32,8,8 on over 50% shooting in a season. Kobe's never sniffed a 50% shooting season. Kobe has three 30ppg seasons in 16 seasons, Jordan had eight in 15 seasons, and his lowest shooting percentage in any of those seasons was 48%, which was the year he averaged 37.1.

Kobe's one hell of a player, top 10 all-time, but he's not Jordan. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

Last edited by Roman77; 03-16-2012 at 07:55 AM..
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